5 ms·

How about working on the unthinkable, which is fixing the impossible to navigate UI?

pax 8y ago
160M daily active users might beg to differ. Otherwise, I (xennial) tried it twice and found the UI rather confusing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapchat#Growth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapchat#Growth
applanation 8y ago
> impossible to navigate It is depressing to me how low the bar is for our ability to learn an application. If the UI has more than a single list or button, it becomes "impossible to navigate". There was a time when users would expect some time getting to know their application and even, dare I say, read a guide or manual! Sometimes extremely powerful, creative, and useful tools will have a learning curve. Snap could offer some amazing capabilities, but because of this "simple is everything" mindset, they will face outrage if they expose anything beyond message passing.
- companyhen 8y ago
  The thing is, their old UI was near perfect. They ended up pulling a Digg v3.0
- saagarjha 8y ago
  Making a UI that requires reading a guide or manual necessary is kind of depressing as well, to be honest.
- dahfizz 8y ago
  There is a big difference between a complex UI on a complex application and an unintuitive UI on what should be very simple. It is completely nonsensical how Snapchat works. You have to swipe every which way and there's no clues when to swipe where. You just have to memorize the magical incantation to do what you want through trial and error. We as a society have built up a fantastic 'language' of UI. We know what buttons and menus, etc do. Snapchat throws away all the ways you want to intuitively navigate and give you no clues about what to do instead.
  - michaelbuckbee 8y ago
    I've only dipped my toe into Snapchat a few times, but you are spot on with your description of the UI. However, I think your description also fits CLI's which has always led me to wonder if maybe Snapchat's UI is really a way forward as a "native mobile" CLI of a sort. We're already seeing things like pinch-to-zoom, swipe to move next, etc. being taken and recombined for all sorts of apps.
    - steve19 8y ago
      The CLI is self-documenting. xyz --help, -h or --help | grep 'abc', along with man xyz gives you everything you need to know. This is probably one of my favorite things about the CLI versus GUI. There is nothing worse than working with cli apps that have weird incantations.
      - krageon 8y ago
        Maybe it's been a while since you used a CLI when you weren't intimately familiar with it, or maybe it has been a while since you used an application that deviates from the -h standard (or that doesn't provide a manpage, opting instead for info), but I'd really hesitate to call this process self-documenting for anyone that doesn't already know the tool. I've been using command-line interfaces for a pretty long time now, and I'm incredibly thankful that these days I can look something up on the internet and generally find a list of some examples on how to use things. Man pages are generally incredibly verbose in all the wrong ways (far too much information, far too little that you actually want) and the -h switch at best gives you some flags and descriptions that are fundamentally too short to teach you anything useful. There is no real global standard for what kind of flags or inputs do what things (for example, far from every program with a CLI interface will actually accept "-" as an input file even though that's one of those things a lot of people use and should therefore be pretty obvious), further obfuscating the core workings of anything you might be using.
- mlazos 8y ago
  You shouldn’t have to be a power user in order to use an application. There are no clues what do other than trial and error
- shobith 8y ago
  My hypothesis around this was younger (or curious people) would just "get" the UI and the older people won't be on the app or not be as active.
  - marcodave 8y ago
    indeed. Kids would learn the whole coreutils flags by heart if that's what it takes to see some bikini shots
- joe5150 8y ago
  Can you tell me without searching how to find a list of everybody you have added as a friend on Snapchat? You are free to look at the app itself.
- kokokokoko 8y ago
  Remember these services are not designed to fulfill a previously existing need. They are designed to become addictive and create a new need, which they then have a monopoly on fulfilling. The applications you are thinking of served preexisting needs, so it required more upfront complexity. Something like Snapchat's UI does not have the burden of fulfilling a previously existing need. That is, until they redesigned it. Then suddenly, the new UI had to provide for a pre-existing need and as an obvious consequence, has been more difficult for both new and existing users.
gorkish 8y ago
Please do not criticize the Gam-i-fied(TM) UI. Discovering core features is so fun! Here is a trophy for your unwavering loyalty!
- kuhhk 8y ago
  Is that really what they’re doing or just sarcasm? (I’ve never used Snapchat)
  - matthall15 8y ago
    That is really what they do. Certain actions (screenshots, video, etc) are rewarded with trophies accessible in the app.
    - xanth 8y ago
      The whole concept of fleeting pictures is designed to make you addicted, I refuse to get on board because I know I'll get sucked right in.
umvi 8y ago
Or fixing their Android app and making it not lag/softbrick my camera?
- sincerely 8y ago
  Are they still doing the thing where instead of taking a photo it takes a screenshot of the display?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
oosjc9a5 8y ago
That's done on purpose, to avoid what happened to Facebook: swarmed by old people, and then deemed uncool. Snapchat is teen territory.
- taurath 8y ago
  I guess that gets rid of the generation that wants to install new social media apps but doesn't know how to google for things. .... I don't know that thats really a generation.
  - oosjc9a5 8y ago
    It's not like there's a big divide in generations... you go to a high school, there's people in an age range, and you can very well teach someone who is one year younger than you how to use something. Rinse and repeat.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      I don’t believe that is the common usage of the term generation. A generation typically involves a period of time at least as long as the organism takes to reach sexual reproductive age.
      - oosjc9a5 8y ago
        You are right, I completely misunderstood what he meant.
- easytiger 8y ago
  Surely their advertising target value is next to nothing, what with no income
  - kalleboo 8y ago
    If personal income mattered, then Saturday morning cartoons would never have been a thing. (they can still pester their parents)
denzil_correa 8y ago
An interesting 2016 article about Snapchat's confusing UI - "How Snapchat Built a Business By Confusing Olds" [0] and HN discussion [1]. > Compared with Twitter or Facebook, Snapchat can seem almost aggressively user-unfriendly. If you’re new to the app and looking for posts by your kid, your boyfriend, or DJ Khaled, good luck. It’s hard to find somebody without knowing his or her screen name. This is by design. “We’ve made it very hard for parents to embarrass their children,” Spiegel said at a conference in January. “It’s much more for sharing personal moments than it is about this public display.” [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-how-snapchat-built-a-business/ https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-how-snapchat-built-a... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11217075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11217075
- nemothekid 8y ago
  Snapchat ‘16’s UI is much different than Snapchat ‘18. Snapchat ‘16 was “confusing” because it didn’t hand hold you and a lot of features weee behind invisible swipes. The features were there, it was just hard to realize that they existed. Snapchat ‘18 isn’t confusing. It’s bad because they de-emphasized everything about why people used the app and instead heavily pushed their own content. It’s practically a different app with a different purpose - it’s a tabloid rag rather than a social network. Snapchat felt more personal than FB/IG, and I guess Spiegal saw all the celebs using the app and killed the goose trying to monetize that.
aasasd 8y ago
Well, I mean, Tumblr has basically no navigation between blogs on the desktop, and that didn't stop it.
- throwawaymath 8y ago
  I think Tumblr might be one of the worst examples you could cite if you're talking about successful social networks. Especially in 2019.
  - aasasd 8y ago
    > As of January 2016, the website had 555 million monthly visitors. The number of blog posts each day peaked at over 100 million in early 2014. Yah, not successful at all.
    - throwawaymath 8y ago
      Commercially, no, not at all. Snapchat looks successful too if all you're checking is MAU. And yet the company has been struggling constantly since it went public. In the context of valuation and business decisions, it turns out having a lot of users isn't enough. If it was, Snapchat wouldn't be in trouble and we wouldn't even be having this discussion. As a further point, note that you're citing 2014 and 2016 figures, and I did say, "especially in 2019." Yahoo never recouped its acquisition price from Tumblr.

pax 8y ago

160M daily active users might beg to differ. Otherwise, I (xennial) tried it twice and found the UI rather confusing. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapchat#Growth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snapchat#Growth

applanation 8y ago

> impossible to navigate It is depressing to me how low the bar is for our ability to learn an application. If the UI has more than a single list or button, it becomes "impossible to navigate". There was a time when users would expect some time getting to know their application and even, dare I say, read a guide or manual! Sometimes extremely powerful, creative, and useful tools will have a learning curve. Snap could offer some amazing capabilities, but because of this "simple is everything" mindset, they will face outrage if they expose anything beyond message passing.

companyhen 8y ago
The thing is, their old UI was near perfect. They ended up pulling a Digg v3.0
saagarjha 8y ago
Making a UI that requires reading a guide or manual necessary is kind of depressing as well, to be honest.
dahfizz 8y ago
There is a big difference between a complex UI on a complex application and an unintuitive UI on what should be very simple. It is completely nonsensical how Snapchat works. You have to swipe every which way and there's no clues when to swipe where. You just have to memorize the magical incantation to do what you want through trial and error. We as a society have built up a fantastic 'language' of UI. We know what buttons and menus, etc do. Snapchat throws away all the ways you want to intuitively navigate and give you no clues about what to do instead.
- michaelbuckbee 8y ago
  I've only dipped my toe into Snapchat a few times, but you are spot on with your description of the UI. However, I think your description also fits CLI's which has always led me to wonder if maybe Snapchat's UI is really a way forward as a "native mobile" CLI of a sort. We're already seeing things like pinch-to-zoom, swipe to move next, etc. being taken and recombined for all sorts of apps.
  - steve19 8y ago
    The CLI is self-documenting. xyz --help, -h or --help | grep 'abc', along with man xyz gives you everything you need to know. This is probably one of my favorite things about the CLI versus GUI. There is nothing worse than working with cli apps that have weird incantations.
    - krageon 8y ago
      Maybe it's been a while since you used a CLI when you weren't intimately familiar with it, or maybe it has been a while since you used an application that deviates from the -h standard (or that doesn't provide a manpage, opting instead for info), but I'd really hesitate to call this process self-documenting for anyone that doesn't already know the tool. I've been using command-line interfaces for a pretty long time now, and I'm incredibly thankful that these days I can look something up on the internet and generally find a list of some examples on how to use things. Man pages are generally incredibly verbose in all the wrong ways (far too much information, far too little that you actually want) and the -h switch at best gives you some flags and descriptions that are fundamentally too short to teach you anything useful. There is no real global standard for what kind of flags or inputs do what things (for example, far from every program with a CLI interface will actually accept "-" as an input file even though that's one of those things a lot of people use and should therefore be pretty obvious), further obfuscating the core workings of anything you might be using.
mlazos 8y ago
You shouldn’t have to be a power user in order to use an application. There are no clues what do other than trial and error
shobith 8y ago
My hypothesis around this was younger (or curious people) would just "get" the UI and the older people won't be on the app or not be as active.
- marcodave 8y ago
  indeed. Kids would learn the whole coreutils flags by heart if that's what it takes to see some bikini shots
joe5150 8y ago
Can you tell me without searching how to find a list of everybody you have added as a friend on Snapchat? You are free to look at the app itself.
kokokokoko 8y ago
Remember these services are not designed to fulfill a previously existing need. They are designed to become addictive and create a new need, which they then have a monopoly on fulfilling. The applications you are thinking of served preexisting needs, so it required more upfront complexity. Something like Snapchat's UI does not have the burden of fulfilling a previously existing need. That is, until they redesigned it. Then suddenly, the new UI had to provide for a pre-existing need and as an obvious consequence, has been more difficult for both new and existing users.

gorkish 8y ago

Please do not criticize the Gam-i-fied(TM) UI. Discovering core features is so fun! Here is a trophy for your unwavering loyalty!

kuhhk 8y ago
Is that really what they’re doing or just sarcasm? (I’ve never used Snapchat)
- matthall15 8y ago
  That is really what they do. Certain actions (screenshots, video, etc) are rewarded with trophies accessible in the app.
  - xanth 8y ago
    The whole concept of fleeting pictures is designed to make you addicted, I refuse to get on board because I know I'll get sucked right in.

umvi 8y ago

Or fixing their Android app and making it not lag/softbrick my camera?

sincerely 8y ago
Are they still doing the thing where instead of taking a photo it takes a screenshot of the display?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

oosjc9a5 8y ago

That's done on purpose, to avoid what happened to Facebook: swarmed by old people, and then deemed uncool. Snapchat is teen territory.

taurath 8y ago
I guess that gets rid of the generation that wants to install new social media apps but doesn't know how to google for things. .... I don't know that thats really a generation.
- oosjc9a5 8y ago
  It's not like there's a big divide in generations... you go to a high school, there's people in an age range, and you can very well teach someone who is one year younger than you how to use something. Rinse and repeat.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    I don’t believe that is the common usage of the term generation. A generation typically involves a period of time at least as long as the organism takes to reach sexual reproductive age.
    - oosjc9a5 8y ago
      You are right, I completely misunderstood what he meant.
easytiger 8y ago
Surely their advertising target value is next to nothing, what with no income
- kalleboo 8y ago
  If personal income mattered, then Saturday morning cartoons would never have been a thing. (they can still pester their parents)

denzil_correa 8y ago

An interesting 2016 article about Snapchat's confusing UI - "How Snapchat Built a Business By Confusing Olds" [0] and HN discussion [1]. > Compared with Twitter or Facebook, Snapchat can seem almost aggressively user-unfriendly. If you’re new to the app and looking for posts by your kid, your boyfriend, or DJ Khaled, good luck. It’s hard to find somebody without knowing his or her screen name. This is by design. “We’ve made it very hard for parents to embarrass their children,” Spiegel said at a conference in January. “It’s much more for sharing personal moments than it is about this public display.” [0] https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-how-snapchat-built-a-business/ https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-how-snapchat-built-a... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11217075 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11217075

nemothekid 8y ago
Snapchat ‘16’s UI is much different than Snapchat ‘18. Snapchat ‘16 was “confusing” because it didn’t hand hold you and a lot of features weee behind invisible swipes. The features were there, it was just hard to realize that they existed. Snapchat ‘18 isn’t confusing. It’s bad because they de-emphasized everything about why people used the app and instead heavily pushed their own content. It’s practically a different app with a different purpose - it’s a tabloid rag rather than a social network. Snapchat felt more personal than FB/IG, and I guess Spiegal saw all the celebs using the app and killed the goose trying to monetize that.

aasasd 8y ago

Well, I mean, Tumblr has basically no navigation between blogs on the desktop, and that didn't stop it.

throwawaymath 8y ago
I think Tumblr might be one of the worst examples you could cite if you're talking about successful social networks. Especially in 2019.
- aasasd 8y ago
  > As of January 2016, the website had 555 million monthly visitors. The number of blog posts each day peaked at over 100 million in early 2014. Yah, not successful at all.
  - throwawaymath 8y ago
    Commercially, no, not at all. Snapchat looks successful too if all you're checking is MAU. And yet the company has been struggling constantly since it went public. In the context of valuation and business decisions, it turns out having a lot of users isn't enough. If it was, Snapchat wouldn't be in trouble and we wouldn't even be having this discussion. As a further point, note that you're citing 2014 and 2016 figures, and I did say, "especially in 2019." Yahoo never recouped its acquisition price from Tumblr.