8 ms·

Microsoft Issues Windows 10 Upgrade Warning

30 points by Frye 8y ago

baldfat 8y ago
I am glad that Windows is an opt-out of updates. We all know the majority of people never update anything. Personally I opt out and manually update my systems but most people just need it to happen.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  I see it in my family and loved ones - while it's unfortunate that sometimes windows decides it really needs to restart RIGHT NOW, the fact that it's doing that is the only reason the PC is getting updated at all - they never turn them off and they never update on their own. There should absolutely be options for those of us who know enough to make the choice, but sometimes taking choice away seems like the better option.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
    Who cares if they never update? Chances are it isn't some critical vulnerability that gets them infected with the garbage software and malware you end up having to deal with anyway. Put me firmly in the camp against removing control from the person sitting at the computer.
- TwoNineA 8y ago
  Tell that to the person who got his personal files flushed automagically by a Windows update.
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    Were they initially pushing that October update, or were those manual requests for update?
    - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
      Pushing, without changing settings you got it.
      - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
        Ah, ok. So did that radically affect how many people got it or just the demographic? I'm wondering who received the update before they pulled it vs who would have received it in a opt in environment.
- Wowfunhappy 8y ago
  When I set up Windows to encode a video overnight, and I wake up the next morning and the encode isn't finished because Windows decided to restart in the middle, I'm not happy. This basically means I can't use Windows to encode videos, period. (And no, setting Active Hours doesn't work, because the whole point is I want the videos to get encoded when I'm not active!) The same applies to downloading large files, etc. I realize that updates are important, but it's even more important that I can actually rely on my computer.
  - 21 8y ago
    You get a notification when Windows plans on restarting somewhere in the future. I just click on it and manually set the restart date 1 week in the future. That's it. I'm also leaving the computer on for weeks and never had an unexpected reboot with this protocol.
    - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
      This doesn't work if it's been a while since I last booted into my Windows partition. Windows immediately decides I'm past the point where I can defer. It does show a notification immediately beforehand, but if I'm asleep that isn't useful.
      - baldfat 8y ago
        You can disable the Reboot task present under Task Scheduler Library > Microsoft > Windows > UpdateOrchestrator in the Task Scheduler app I haven't had a Windows 10 computer just randomly reboot and I work with about 30 PCs.
        Wowfunhappy 8y ago
        Respectfully, if you're using the PC's for work I'm guessing they don't get turned off (or stay in alternate OS's) for extended periods. I'll take a look at task scheduler, thanks.
- twblalock 8y ago
  Auto updates only work well when they don't break stuff, and don't cause random reboots. Microsoft has a pretty bad track record with their updates breaking stuff and causing data loss. I don't trust them anymore.
- smittywerben 8y ago
  Unless you buy Windows 10 Enterprise or Windows 2016 Server, you can't opt-out.
  - baldfat 8y ago
    To disable the Reboot task present under Task Scheduler Library > Microsoft > Windows > UpdateOrchestrator in the Task Scheduler app Am I wrong that this is an option for all Windows 10 Editions?
    - smittywerben 8y ago
      For Enterprise/Server you set [disable] Configure Automatic Updates or if you really care [enable] Do not connect to any Windows Update Internet locations
lozenge 8y ago
It's not a warning - this only affects new PCs shipped with the latest version, not upgraders.
- KSS42 8y ago
  "at this time"
  - dingdingdang 8y ago
    Exactly. Running Windows now is like playing roulette. How will this feature work in a month, "no idea". How will I change this option in the UI, "no idea". Will this option I set for important privacy setting stick after the latest (automatic) upgrade, "no idea. Ad infinitum. :/
    - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
      It's like using a Google product.
      - dingdingdang 8y ago
        Yep, and the effect of having this happen on a mass scale across all major providers/players in the software/IT field is that humanity is collectively left spinning it's wheels aimlessly (literally million of years in lost real time) instead of going from a to b using a set of tools. If our cars behaved in similar ways (the gearstick is sometimes in one place sometimes in another and the way the wheel works changes at random while the glove compartment could at any one time be found in a new surprising location) we would see the results instantly but because computing is predominantly desk bound the loss incurred is in many ways silent.
Someone1234 8y ago
I'm always impressed by people's creative ability to put a negative spin on almost anything. Particularly to generate hate-clicks. In this case they're implementing Seamless Updates, which should substantially reduce downtime and improve roll-backs during update installation (a major complaint) but instead of focusing on the benefit, they focus on the disk space loss. The reason it takes up space on Windows, Android, and Chrome OS is that the reserved area holds a chunk of the operating system which is updated in the background before restart. When a restart occurs, the reserved and active slices are swapped (and reversion can be rapidly conducted for failures/roll-backs). This is a nice quality of life improvement for a common complaint.
- coderobe 8y ago
  it's a nice quality of life improvement unless you're running low on space. 7+ gb is a lot, especially on embedded devices with low soldered storage - like microsoft's own products! coincidentally instead of offering upgradeable internal storage they upsell really hard on the models with more storage in their surface lineup if anything, this should be a toggle- if only an opt-out toggle. fwiw, you can install a linux system including an entire graphical stack with web browser and mail client in that space, twice.
  - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
    This is also going to be a major pain on my Windows VM's. I often only give those ~32 GB of storage to begin with, since they're only for a tiny handful of programs. I'm assuming there will be a group policy setting I can change, though, since I'm lucky enough to have Windows 10 Pro...
  - 6c696e7578 8y ago
    > fwiw, you can install a linux system including an entire graphical stack with web browser and mail client in that space, twice. I think you could fit quite a few raspberry pi's with GUI environments into 7g. The OEM and MS alliance has been going for some time now. MS promises HW push, and the OEM promise to sell hardware only with Windows. I am surprised they didn't round it up to 10G. > if anything, this should be a toggle- if only an opt-out toggle. I agree, but that doesn't help sell PC's. ZFS snapshots would reduce the space requirements.
twblalock 8y ago
I don't understand why the updates take up so much space -- 7GB according to the article.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  It seems like the old "set your pagefile manually so you never have to worry about it growing/shrinking" trick from Windows of yore - they are grabbing that much so that they don't have to grab more at any time. It's basically a promise that, while those 7 GB are the systems now, you'll never have a problem where you run out of storage space due to an update (assuming after they reserve the initial 7 GB).
jerf 8y ago
I can't answer this because the most likely location for the answer [1] is locked behind a beta program access or something, but where do they plan on taking the reserved storage from? I assume they're not going to try to repartition the drive? It sounds like they're just using filesystem features to carve it out of an existing partition, but I'd like to be sure. My laptop is currently dual-boot, but if Microsoft starts blindly mucking with partition tables it's gonna go single-boot Linux right quick. (I expect it's not that, but I'd like to be sure.) As long as they're staying out of the partition table, this sounds like a good idea to me, honestly. [1]: https://insider.windows.com/en-us/ih/?contentid=2762bf7a-bef0-4835-8e4c-04ae8e3ed299&contenttype=quest https://insider.windows.com/en-us/ih/?contentid=2762bf7a-bef...
- smhenderson 8y ago
  I have no clue either but my guess is that they will just use a sys file like hibernate or pagefile. Most people will never see it and those of us that peek at hidden, system files once in a while will most likely not be able to mess with it easily due to permissions. At least I would hope they would do something like that, I agree a method which messed with partitions would be a complete show stopper!
Tomasz_Papka 8y ago
Interesting... Microsoft is forcing everyone to update their machines for quite some time... I've noticed that MS is forcing updates on my machine about a year ago and out of frustration I asked about it on this forum four months ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18029216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18029216) Please try it. Go to Computer Management/Services and Applications/Services and then stop and disable Windows Updates. It's a matter of days before it will be back and running again. My next machine is going to be Apple.
- 21 8y ago
  I presume the first thing you'll do on your next Apple machine is disabling updates. Don't forget to also disable auto-updates in Chrome/Firefox, since they are enabled by default.
  - zdragnar 8y ago
    I think the gripe was less about auto-updates than the fact that the OS allegedly un-set OP's attempt at opting out. Forgetting certain settings is annoying. Forgetting that I want to manually control when my computer downloads gigs of data to apply a patch that- in recent times especially- may very well brick my system... well, I can certainly understand where OP's frustration comes in. Even at one of my jobs a few years back (which was about 50/45/5 apple / windows / linux shop) we were cautioned against applying major updates from apple within the first month or so of their releases given past issues.
    - 21 8y ago
      I wouldn't call disabling the Windows Update service as "setting an option" that it's later forgotten. It's more of a thing an inexperienced user does by mistake while messing around. Windows does things behind you back, like magically restore system files if you manage to delete them, and so on, in an effort to keep running. But of course, some people are like "I deleted those files on purpose, so stay the damn out of my lawn" But I do get your point, and Windows is indeed lacking an option to fully disable updates, even if it does have an option to defer major updates by up to an year.
zozbot123 8y ago
Linux has the exact same feature, and has had it since approximately forever. By default, 5% of the disk space on any system partition is reserved for use by the superuser after the main 95% portion is filled up. And system updates run with superuser privileges, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- jenscow 8y ago
  Differences: - It's configurable. - The space is reserved for the end user, not the OS manufacturer.
mrguyorama 8y ago
One thing that interests me: How does a Windows 10 install + 7gb reserved space compare with a current Windows 7 install in terms of disk usage? I thought Windows 7 was "fatter" than 10?
IshKebab 8y ago
I'm fine with this. Android basically works the same way and I don't see anyone complaining about that.
- yread 8y ago
  I'm complaining. Android "System" takes up 13GB on my phone. That's too damn much!
LifeLiverTransp 8y ago
Introducing the Update Prevention Tool.. Continously writting into reserved storage to prevent updates.. in 3.. 2... 1

30 points by Frye 8y ago

I am glad that Windows is an opt-out of updates. We all know the majority of people never update anything. Personally I opt out and manually update my systems but most people just need it to happen.

SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
I see it in my family and loved ones - while it's unfortunate that sometimes windows decides it really needs to restart RIGHT NOW, the fact that it's doing that is the only reason the PC is getting updated at all - they never turn them off and they never update on their own. There should absolutely be options for those of us who know enough to make the choice, but sometimes taking choice away seems like the better option.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
  Who cares if they never update? Chances are it isn't some critical vulnerability that gets them infected with the garbage software and malware you end up having to deal with anyway. Put me firmly in the camp against removing control from the person sitting at the computer.
TwoNineA 8y ago
Tell that to the person who got his personal files flushed automagically by a Windows update.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
  Were they initially pushing that October update, or were those manual requests for update?
  - fuzz4lyfe 8y ago
    Pushing, without changing settings you got it.
    - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
      Ah, ok. So did that radically affect how many people got it or just the demographic? I'm wondering who received the update before they pulled it vs who would have received it in a opt in environment.
Wowfunhappy 8y ago
When I set up Windows to encode a video overnight, and I wake up the next morning and the encode isn't finished because Windows decided to restart in the middle, I'm not happy. This basically means I can't use Windows to encode videos, period. (And no, setting Active Hours doesn't work, because the whole point is I want the videos to get encoded when I'm not active!) The same applies to downloading large files, etc. I realize that updates are important, but it's even more important that I can actually rely on my computer.
- 21 8y ago
  You get a notification when Windows plans on restarting somewhere in the future. I just click on it and manually set the restart date 1 week in the future. That's it. I'm also leaving the computer on for weeks and never had an unexpected reboot with this protocol.
  - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
    This doesn't work if it's been a while since I last booted into my Windows partition. Windows immediately decides I'm past the point where I can defer. It does show a notification immediately beforehand, but if I'm asleep that isn't useful.
    - baldfat 8y ago
      You can disable the Reboot task present under Task Scheduler Library > Microsoft > Windows > UpdateOrchestrator in the Task Scheduler app I haven't had a Windows 10 computer just randomly reboot and I work with about 30 PCs.
      - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
        Respectfully, if you're using the PC's for work I'm guessing they don't get turned off (or stay in alternate OS's) for extended periods. I'll take a look at task scheduler, thanks.
twblalock 8y ago
Auto updates only work well when they don't break stuff, and don't cause random reboots. Microsoft has a pretty bad track record with their updates breaking stuff and causing data loss. I don't trust them anymore.
smittywerben 8y ago
Unless you buy Windows 10 Enterprise or Windows 2016 Server, you can't opt-out.
- baldfat 8y ago
  To disable the Reboot task present under Task Scheduler Library > Microsoft > Windows > UpdateOrchestrator in the Task Scheduler app Am I wrong that this is an option for all Windows 10 Editions?
  - smittywerben 8y ago
    For Enterprise/Server you set [disable] Configure Automatic Updates or if you really care [enable] Do not connect to any Windows Update Internet locations

lozenge 8y ago

It's not a warning - this only affects new PCs shipped with the latest version, not upgraders.

KSS42 8y ago
"at this time"
- dingdingdang 8y ago
  Exactly. Running Windows now is like playing roulette. How will this feature work in a month, "no idea". How will I change this option in the UI, "no idea". Will this option I set for important privacy setting stick after the latest (automatic) upgrade, "no idea. Ad infinitum. :/
  - SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
    It's like using a Google product.
    - dingdingdang 8y ago
      Yep, and the effect of having this happen on a mass scale across all major providers/players in the software/IT field is that humanity is collectively left spinning it's wheels aimlessly (literally million of years in lost real time) instead of going from a to b using a set of tools. If our cars behaved in similar ways (the gearstick is sometimes in one place sometimes in another and the way the wheel works changes at random while the glove compartment could at any one time be found in a new surprising location) we would see the results instantly but because computing is predominantly desk bound the loss incurred is in many ways silent.

Someone1234 8y ago

I'm always impressed by people's creative ability to put a negative spin on almost anything. Particularly to generate hate-clicks. In this case they're implementing Seamless Updates, which should substantially reduce downtime and improve roll-backs during update installation (a major complaint) but instead of focusing on the benefit, they focus on the disk space loss. The reason it takes up space on Windows, Android, and Chrome OS is that the reserved area holds a chunk of the operating system which is updated in the background before restart. When a restart occurs, the reserved and active slices are swapped (and reversion can be rapidly conducted for failures/roll-backs). This is a nice quality of life improvement for a common complaint.

coderobe 8y ago
it's a nice quality of life improvement unless you're running low on space. 7+ gb is a lot, especially on embedded devices with low soldered storage - like microsoft's own products! coincidentally instead of offering upgradeable internal storage they upsell really hard on the models with more storage in their surface lineup if anything, this should be a toggle- if only an opt-out toggle. fwiw, you can install a linux system including an entire graphical stack with web browser and mail client in that space, twice.
- Wowfunhappy 8y ago
  This is also going to be a major pain on my Windows VM's. I often only give those ~32 GB of storage to begin with, since they're only for a tiny handful of programs. I'm assuming there will be a group policy setting I can change, though, since I'm lucky enough to have Windows 10 Pro...
- 6c696e7578 8y ago
  > fwiw, you can install a linux system including an entire graphical stack with web browser and mail client in that space, twice. I think you could fit quite a few raspberry pi's with GUI environments into 7g. The OEM and MS alliance has been going for some time now. MS promises HW push, and the OEM promise to sell hardware only with Windows. I am surprised they didn't round it up to 10G. > if anything, this should be a toggle- if only an opt-out toggle. I agree, but that doesn't help sell PC's. ZFS snapshots would reduce the space requirements.

twblalock 8y ago

I don't understand why the updates take up so much space -- 7GB according to the article.

SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
It seems like the old "set your pagefile manually so you never have to worry about it growing/shrinking" trick from Windows of yore - they are grabbing that much so that they don't have to grab more at any time. It's basically a promise that, while those 7 GB are the systems now, you'll never have a problem where you run out of storage space due to an update (assuming after they reserve the initial 7 GB).

jerf 8y ago

I can't answer this because the most likely location for the answer [1] is locked behind a beta program access or something, but where do they plan on taking the reserved storage from? I assume they're not going to try to repartition the drive? It sounds like they're just using filesystem features to carve it out of an existing partition, but I'd like to be sure. My laptop is currently dual-boot, but if Microsoft starts blindly mucking with partition tables it's gonna go single-boot Linux right quick. (I expect it's not that, but I'd like to be sure.) As long as they're staying out of the partition table, this sounds like a good idea to me, honestly. [1]: https://insider.windows.com/en-us/ih/?contentid=2762bf7a-bef0-4835-8e4c-04ae8e3ed299&contenttype=quest https://insider.windows.com/en-us/ih/?contentid=2762bf7a-bef...

smhenderson 8y ago
I have no clue either but my guess is that they will just use a sys file like hibernate or pagefile. Most people will never see it and those of us that peek at hidden, system files once in a while will most likely not be able to mess with it easily due to permissions. At least I would hope they would do something like that, I agree a method which messed with partitions would be a complete show stopper!

Tomasz_Papka 8y ago

Interesting... Microsoft is forcing everyone to update their machines for quite some time... I've noticed that MS is forcing updates on my machine about a year ago and out of frustration I asked about it on this forum four months ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18029216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18029216) Please try it. Go to Computer Management/Services and Applications/Services and then stop and disable Windows Updates. It's a matter of days before it will be back and running again. My next machine is going to be Apple.

21 8y ago
I presume the first thing you'll do on your next Apple machine is disabling updates. Don't forget to also disable auto-updates in Chrome/Firefox, since they are enabled by default.
- zdragnar 8y ago
  I think the gripe was less about auto-updates than the fact that the OS allegedly un-set OP's attempt at opting out. Forgetting certain settings is annoying. Forgetting that I want to manually control when my computer downloads gigs of data to apply a patch that- in recent times especially- may very well brick my system... well, I can certainly understand where OP's frustration comes in. Even at one of my jobs a few years back (which was about 50/45/5 apple / windows / linux shop) we were cautioned against applying major updates from apple within the first month or so of their releases given past issues.
  - 21 8y ago
    I wouldn't call disabling the Windows Update service as "setting an option" that it's later forgotten. It's more of a thing an inexperienced user does by mistake while messing around. Windows does things behind you back, like magically restore system files if you manage to delete them, and so on, in an effort to keep running. But of course, some people are like "I deleted those files on purpose, so stay the damn out of my lawn" But I do get your point, and Windows is indeed lacking an option to fully disable updates, even if it does have an option to defer major updates by up to an year.

zozbot123 8y ago

Linux has the exact same feature, and has had it since approximately forever. By default, 5% of the disk space on any system partition is reserved for use by the superuser after the main 95% portion is filled up. And system updates run with superuser privileges, so... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

jenscow 8y ago
Differences: - It's configurable. - The space is reserved for the end user, not the OS manufacturer.

mrguyorama 8y ago

One thing that interests me: How does a Windows 10 install + 7gb reserved space compare with a current Windows 7 install in terms of disk usage? I thought Windows 7 was "fatter" than 10?

IshKebab 8y ago

I'm fine with this. Android basically works the same way and I don't see anyone complaining about that.

yread 8y ago
I'm complaining. Android "System" takes up 13GB on my phone. That's too damn much!

LifeLiverTransp 8y ago

Introducing the Update Prevention Tool.. Continously writting into reserved storage to prevent updates.. in 3.. 2... 1