7 ms·

Gatwick airport trial for valet-parking robots

56 points by based2 8y ago

Animats 8y ago
That's clever. But all it does is rearrange the cars in the parking lot. It doesn't pick them up at the terminal or deliver them back there. Good first step, though.
- stanley_bots 8y ago
  thanks. what you say is a nice vision, level 5 of such AGVs ;) and as you say, the prior levels are already pretty interesting (our customers, the parking lots owners, saying) as first steps
avar 8y ago
> [...]and uses military-grade GPS to ferry it to a secure bay[...] Something tells me Gatwick isn't actually in possession of the decryption key for the US Air Force's P (precise) signal and this is just some PR person taking it too far.
- metaphor 8y ago
  It's probably safe to conclude that they don't, but you don't need COMSEC crypto keys to achieve "military-grade" accuracy down to 10cm either, i.e. differential GPS[1]. [1] https://www.effective-solutions.co.uk/beacons.html https://www.effective-solutions.co.uk/beacons.html
  - djsumdog 8y ago
    Yea I was on a project where a professor lent us a Trimble GPS (I think they ran $2k ~ $4k at the time). It had a backpack, synced up with a tower at the local airport and gave us information down to a couple of centimeters.
- Brakenshire 8y ago
  Maybe they’re using GPS as a generic term, can access to military-level precision be bought for the non-US satellite positioning systems?
  - Rebelgecko 8y ago
    Probably not, since the main benefits of the military signals are improved resistance to jamming/spoofing, and having a signal that can continue to work if the civilian signal is turned off. If you sell those keys to random businesses they become less effective
- endorphone 8y ago
  https://www.broadcom.com/company/news/product-releases/2302120 https://www.broadcom.com/company/news/product-releases/23021... That is certainly "military grade".
- Reason077 8y ago
  It's a myth that civilian GPS is less precise than military. A modern, dual-frequency or augmented civilian GPS receiver is just as precise as a military GPS. P may have once stood for precise, but now days the main advantage of the encrypted, military P signal is that it prevents spoofing attacks.
  - black-tea 8y ago
    It used to be true but in 2000 Selective Availability was disabled which made the civilian signal just as precise. This is basically why GPS took off around that time despite having been in operation for two decades at that point.
    - eps 8y ago
      It's just one of many whys. Differential GPS was widely available and it gave cm-level positioning precision. Equally if not more important why was your good old hardware minituarization and its cost reduction. In the late 90s a decent GPS reciever was still a size of thick book and cost prohibitively.
      - black-tea 8y ago
        That would have been no problem in a car. But pre 2000s civilian GPS was useless for street level navigation.
        eps 8y ago
        No, it wasn't useless. Again, coupled with differential corrections (available for free over radio) the resulting precision was in centimeter range. The reason it wasn't used was the physical size and cost (for hand-held navigation) and the lack of supporting hardware in cars (no user-facing on-board systems with screens and UI). SA was _not_ the reason for the lack of consumer-level GPS adoption.
        mcculley 8y ago
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  I wonder how they got GPS to work so well in a concrete car-park.
  - thinkingemote 8y ago
    It's the long term car park, open outside not multi story and at about half a mile from the terminals. They are removing loads of lamp posts though...
- sowbug 8y ago
  Are there any meaningful uses of that term? It's a fairly reliable indicator of cluelessness when followed by "encryption."
bradknowles 8y ago
Only 4 robots? Why so few? And only for 4 travelers? Why that arbitrary limitation? Why can’t they handle 5 travelers?
- Thorrez 8y ago
  Where does it mention 4?
gpm 8y ago
This article desperately needs a video, here's a nearly 2 year old video from the same company: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hmbYLQedc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hmbYLQedc
- sanarothe 8y ago
  In the distant future, I might be able to just get out of my car and walk away to let the robots do their thing. But in the near future, any time saving is negated by standing there watching the robo-magic :)
- cortic 8y ago
  Your video is the only non-animated one i can find, and really, its just of a dolly bumping into a car, then cut to 'car being on dolly' and disappearing out of view. All the pictures in the article seem taken from the animated promotional stuff for stanley-robotics.com which itself seems unrealistic as best. And even the 'already used in France' bit is misleading, as it was a trial at charles de gaulle with no information on the scale or success. Their site looks like its there to attract investors rather than sell any kind of real product.. i might be wrong but i don't think this is going to amount to anything, shame.
  - aboutruby 8y ago
    Here is a non-rendered video where the lifting happens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bocfNOjeBm8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bocfNOjeBm8 I don't see how 2 tons are being lifted from such a low and thin surface. The whole thing looks more like a Kickstarter than a real product. Edit: Nope this is 100% legit
    - stanley_bots 8y ago
      same replies as above. Our robots have been receiving in our opened service (Lyon airport) on a daily basis vehicles up to 3 tons (incl. heavy SUVs with hybrid powertrain). Our mechanical spec. is higher though
amanzi 8y ago
I wonder if the movement triggers car alarms to go off?
endianswap 8y ago
I assume I have to leave my car off, but in neutral with the parking brake off? How else could they drag around an AWD/RWD car by just pushing it around from the front?
- djmobley 8y ago
  The vehicle isn’t pushed; all four wheels are lifted off the ground.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Scoundreller 8y ago
    There is a risk if the vehicle is dropped off on level ground that the driver forgets to put it in gear+parking brake. Now if it's parked onto a slope or exposed to heavy winds...
  - PhantomGremlin 8y ago
    That's hardly obvious from the pictures in the article. In addition, cars have very precise jacking locations which must be used to lift them without damage. Those bots probably don't know where to jack every particular vehicle. Do they just jam a dolly under the wheels? I'd give this a hard pass. It is probably just a way to separate some money from some dumb VCs.
    - improbable22 8y ago
      One picture in the article shows that the sled has lifted the car by the wheels. The video posted above shows this more clearly, all four wheels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hmbYLQedc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hmbYLQedc I guess that much tighter parking is the goal, to make this pay, but it's not clear how far they can go here -- it looks like every car can be accessed without moving others, needing clear aisles. Also, the column spacing in many buildings is designed around parking-bay sizes, which will limit how much you can save in any existing building. And it would be one hell of a 50-year bet to design a new building only for this system.
cproctor 8y ago
> He said that passenger feedback was “overwhelmingly good” during a five-month trial at Charles de Gaulle last year, where the system operated so seamlessly that some customers were not even aware a robot had been involved.
Scoundreller 8y ago
One benefit I can see from this: Car owners probably drop off their car and then get valeted into a spot. This means the car is started and ran for a few minutes before being shut down again, draining some precious battery power that isn't recharged in time. Repeat when the owner requests the car's return. This may make the difference between a car that starts when its owner returns vs not.
- LeoPanthera 8y ago
  This seems like a non-problem. Your car battery is going to be full when you arrive at the airport. Two extra starts isn't going to cause a problem.
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    Apparently some modern cars with a lot of electronics do actually have a problem keeping their battery alive for just two weeks in an airport garage!
sowbug 8y ago
These robots and electric car chargers could solve the daily game of musical chairs in corporate parking lots. A single human attendant could handle the "last inch" problem.
jdietrich 8y ago
London's other major airport has a very cool autonomous rapid transit system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4yciAxbGTg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4yciAxbGTg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ULTra_(rapid_transit) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ULTra_(rapid_transit)

56 points by based2 8y ago

That's clever. But all it does is rearrange the cars in the parking lot. It doesn't pick them up at the terminal or deliver them back there. Good first step, though.

stanley_bots 8y ago
thanks. what you say is a nice vision, level 5 of such AGVs ;) and as you say, the prior levels are already pretty interesting (our customers, the parking lots owners, saying) as first steps

avar 8y ago

> [...]and uses military-grade GPS to ferry it to a secure bay[...] Something tells me Gatwick isn't actually in possession of the decryption key for the US Air Force's P (precise) signal and this is just some PR person taking it too far.

metaphor 8y ago
It's probably safe to conclude that they don't, but you don't need COMSEC crypto keys to achieve "military-grade" accuracy down to 10cm either, i.e. differential GPS[1]. [1] https://www.effective-solutions.co.uk/beacons.html https://www.effective-solutions.co.uk/beacons.html
- djsumdog 8y ago
  Yea I was on a project where a professor lent us a Trimble GPS (I think they ran $2k ~ $4k at the time). It had a backpack, synced up with a tower at the local airport and gave us information down to a couple of centimeters.
Brakenshire 8y ago
Maybe they’re using GPS as a generic term, can access to military-level precision be bought for the non-US satellite positioning systems?
- Rebelgecko 8y ago
  Probably not, since the main benefits of the military signals are improved resistance to jamming/spoofing, and having a signal that can continue to work if the civilian signal is turned off. If you sell those keys to random businesses they become less effective
endorphone 8y ago
https://www.broadcom.com/company/news/product-releases/2302120 https://www.broadcom.com/company/news/product-releases/23021... That is certainly "military grade".
Reason077 8y ago
It's a myth that civilian GPS is less precise than military. A modern, dual-frequency or augmented civilian GPS receiver is just as precise as a military GPS. P may have once stood for precise, but now days the main advantage of the encrypted, military P signal is that it prevents spoofing attacks.
- black-tea 8y ago
  It used to be true but in 2000 Selective Availability was disabled which made the civilian signal just as precise. This is basically why GPS took off around that time despite having been in operation for two decades at that point.
  - eps 8y ago
    It's just one of many whys. Differential GPS was widely available and it gave cm-level positioning precision. Equally if not more important why was your good old hardware minituarization and its cost reduction. In the late 90s a decent GPS reciever was still a size of thick book and cost prohibitively.
    - black-tea 8y ago
      That would have been no problem in a car. But pre 2000s civilian GPS was useless for street level navigation.
      - eps 8y ago
        No, it wasn't useless. Again, coupled with differential corrections (available for free over radio) the resulting precision was in centimeter range. The reason it wasn't used was the physical size and cost (for hand-held navigation) and the lack of supporting hardware in cars (no user-facing on-board systems with screens and UI). SA was _not_ the reason for the lack of consumer-level GPS adoption.
        mcculley 8y ago
Scoundreller 8y ago
I wonder how they got GPS to work so well in a concrete car-park.
- thinkingemote 8y ago
  It's the long term car park, open outside not multi story and at about half a mile from the terminals. They are removing loads of lamp posts though...
sowbug 8y ago
Are there any meaningful uses of that term? It's a fairly reliable indicator of cluelessness when followed by "encryption."

bradknowles 8y ago

Only 4 robots? Why so few? And only for 4 travelers? Why that arbitrary limitation? Why can’t they handle 5 travelers?

Thorrez 8y ago
Where does it mention 4?

gpm 8y ago

This article desperately needs a video, here's a nearly 2 year old video from the same company: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hmbYLQedc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hmbYLQedc

sanarothe 8y ago
In the distant future, I might be able to just get out of my car and walk away to let the robots do their thing. But in the near future, any time saving is negated by standing there watching the robo-magic :)
cortic 8y ago
Your video is the only non-animated one i can find, and really, its just of a dolly bumping into a car, then cut to 'car being on dolly' and disappearing out of view. All the pictures in the article seem taken from the animated promotional stuff for stanley-robotics.com which itself seems unrealistic as best. And even the 'already used in France' bit is misleading, as it was a trial at charles de gaulle with no information on the scale or success. Their site looks like its there to attract investors rather than sell any kind of real product.. i might be wrong but i don't think this is going to amount to anything, shame.
- aboutruby 8y ago
  Here is a non-rendered video where the lifting happens: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bocfNOjeBm8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bocfNOjeBm8 I don't see how 2 tons are being lifted from such a low and thin surface. The whole thing looks more like a Kickstarter than a real product. Edit: Nope this is 100% legit
  - stanley_bots 8y ago
    same replies as above. Our robots have been receiving in our opened service (Lyon airport) on a daily basis vehicles up to 3 tons (incl. heavy SUVs with hybrid powertrain). Our mechanical spec. is higher though

amanzi 8y ago

I wonder if the movement triggers car alarms to go off?

endianswap 8y ago

I assume I have to leave my car off, but in neutral with the parking brake off? How else could they drag around an AWD/RWD car by just pushing it around from the front?

djmobley 8y ago
The vehicle isn’t pushed; all four wheels are lifted off the ground.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Scoundreller 8y ago
  There is a risk if the vehicle is dropped off on level ground that the driver forgets to put it in gear+parking brake. Now if it's parked onto a slope or exposed to heavy winds...
- PhantomGremlin 8y ago
  That's hardly obvious from the pictures in the article. In addition, cars have very precise jacking locations which must be used to lift them without damage. Those bots probably don't know where to jack every particular vehicle. Do they just jam a dolly under the wheels? I'd give this a hard pass. It is probably just a way to separate some money from some dumb VCs.
  - improbable22 8y ago
    One picture in the article shows that the sled has lifted the car by the wheels. The video posted above shows this more clearly, all four wheels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hmbYLQedc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3hmbYLQedc I guess that much tighter parking is the goal, to make this pay, but it's not clear how far they can go here -- it looks like every car can be accessed without moving others, needing clear aisles. Also, the column spacing in many buildings is designed around parking-bay sizes, which will limit how much you can save in any existing building. And it would be one hell of a 50-year bet to design a new building only for this system.

cproctor 8y ago

> He said that passenger feedback was “overwhelmingly good” during a five-month trial at Charles de Gaulle last year, where the system operated so seamlessly that some customers were not even aware a robot had been involved.

Scoundreller 8y ago

One benefit I can see from this: Car owners probably drop off their car and then get valeted into a spot. This means the car is started and ran for a few minutes before being shut down again, draining some precious battery power that isn't recharged in time. Repeat when the owner requests the car's return. This may make the difference between a car that starts when its owner returns vs not.

LeoPanthera 8y ago
This seems like a non-problem. Your car battery is going to be full when you arrive at the airport. Two extra starts isn't going to cause a problem.
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  Apparently some modern cars with a lot of electronics do actually have a problem keeping their battery alive for just two weeks in an airport garage!

sowbug 8y ago

These robots and electric car chargers could solve the daily game of musical chairs in corporate parking lots. A single human attendant could handle the "last inch" problem.

jdietrich 8y ago

London's other major airport has a very cool autonomous rapid transit system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4yciAxbGTg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4yciAxbGTg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ULTra_(rapid_transit) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ULTra_(rapid_transit)