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> I would presume electric drive trains are quite complex. They're significantly less complicated than an ICE power-train and drive-train. The Nissan Leaf has

> I would presume electric drive trains are quite complex. They're significantly less complicated than an ICE power-train and drive-train. The Nissan Leaf has a single electric motor and a fixed reduction gear box. The only fluids to maintain are the wiper fluid and reduction gear box fluid, which is similar to automatic transmission fluid but requires less maintenance. The battery pack is air cooled and the only servicing is an annual inspection to maintain warranty. The Tesla vehicles are all direct drive with no gearbox. They come in single or dual motor options. The batteries are cooled and the fluid is changed at 4 year intervals. The maintenance schedule for an EV is annually changing the cabin filter, wiper blades, and doing a multi-point inspection.

magduf 8y ago
>The Tesla vehicles are all direct drive with no gearbox. This is wrong. They have a single electric motor (except the dual-motor ones) and a fixed reduction gear box, just like the Leaf. No one does direct-drive electric motors because it's a lot easier to make a faster-spinning motor and then use a reduction gear to get usable torque from it; a direct-drive motor would have to have a huge diameter. >The maintenance schedule for an EV is annually changing the cabin filter, wiper blades, and doing a multi-point inspection. You're forgetting the brakes. EVs still have regular hydraulic brake systems that need new pads and fluid, though not as much because they can use regenerative braking much of the time, avoiding use of the friction brakes, which are really for emergency stops and full stops.
- jki275 8y ago
  I've seen claims by Tesla that their brakes never need service due to the fact they're barely used. Not sure how accurate that is, but it's sort of logical.
  - magduf 8y ago
    Sounds like BS. Even if you almost never use them, brake fluid has a finite life and needs to be replaced every few years. Brake systems are never perfectly hermetically sealed and brake fluid is hygroscopic.
    - solarkraft 8y ago
      Plus: What about rust?
      - cptskippy 8y ago
        Rust is usually rubbed off when the brakes are engaged. Buildup on any vehicle is only really an issue when the vehicle sits undriven for long periods of time. In EVs the brakes are engaged, just less frequently and with less force. For example in a normal car when you depress the brake pedal gently to slow to a normal stop the brakes engage immediately. In an EV the regenerative braking force increases when you depress the brake pedal and only after it has hit 100% do the brakes engage. So with an ICE vehicle the brakes are the primary stopping force most of the time where as with an EV they're the secondary stopping force most of the time.
        magduf 8y ago
        I think he may be referring to rust inside the brake lines. I've seen it before on an older vehicle that probably never had its brake fluid changed. Over time, moisture gets into the system and corrodes the steel brake lines, causing rust to get into the fluid. It's why you have to change the fluid every so often: it's impossible to keep moisture out, and the fluid is hygroscopic.
        cptskippy 8y ago
        Are you just going down my comment history and trying to misinterpret anything I say so that you can respond and feel good about yourself? Are you going to run home to mommy and say "look I won the internet today!"
        dang 8y ago
        Please don't engage in nasty spats on HN. If you think someone's behaving abusively, let us know at hn@ycombinator.com, and avoid breaking the site guidelines yourself. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- cptskippy 8y ago
  > This is wrong. You're right. I was mistaken, I thought I had read that the Roadster was the only Tesla with a gearbox but that it was eliminated with a free upgrade. There's still a gearbox but it's a fixed single reduction gear. > You're forgetting the brakes. I wasn't, I was touching on the differences between an EV and an ICE with regards to maintenance. Brakes are a consumable that are inspected and changed as needed rather than at regular interval like the belts or fluids in an ICE vehicle. Brakes and brake fluid are part of the multi-point inspection that's done on all vehicles when they're serviced. As you pointed out, EVs use their brakes significantly less than ICE vehicles and so any maintenance of the brake system will be less frequent than an equivalent ICE vehicle. Overall EVs require significantly less maintenance to their drive/power-train AND to some of their traditional systems (e.g. brakes).
  - throw0u1t 8y ago
    I'd like to refute the point about brakes. A lot of it is based on the driver, not just the vehicle. I've driven a manual all my life. I don't really enjoy automatics, and I've got to the point now where I've pretty much perfected rev matching and heel and toe so I can engine brake most of the time with minimal wear on my clutch and shock to my drive train. To be perfectly honest, I don't think I wear my brakes any faster than if I drove an electric car. I'd love to do an experiment to see if this was the case, it sounds like as lot of fun! However, I concede that most drivers are nowhere near as interested in the technicalities of driving and teaching learner drivers to rev match and heel and toe is probably too complex at that stage in their driving careers.
    - cptskippy 8y ago
      > However, I concede that most drivers are nowhere near as interested in the technicalities of driving and teaching learner drivers to rev match and heel and toe is probably too complex at that stage in their driving careers. For every ICE driver like you, there are an equal number of EV drivers trying to optimize their driving habits as well. The difference between ICE and EV when it comes to brake wear is that it's an active effort for an ICE driver and passive for an EV driver. The regenerative braking in an EV varies by make/model but the 1st gen. Nissan Leaf has by far the least aggressive system. With the Leaf, the brake engagement is based on a number of factors from how fast you're going to how hard you press on the brake. The Leaf will almost come to a complete halt simply by taking your foot off the accelerator and allowing the regen system to drag the car to a stop without ever depressing the brake. In stop-and-go traffic you rarely have to take your foot off the gas. In the Leaf when you depress the brake pedal the regenerative system ramps up quickly and only after it has peaked do the mechanical brakes engage. When stopping it's not uncommon to hear the mechanical brakes engage just as the car comes to a rest to hold the car at a stand still, it's an audible thunk. The Tesla Model 3's regenerative braking is quite aggressive compared to the Leaf and if you take your foot completely off the accelerator pedal you will lurch forward in your seat as the car quickly decelerates. I personally find the Leaf to be a much easier, and a lot less fun, to drive than the Model 3 because of how the brake regen systems work. In my 2015 Leaf I can engage hill mode (aggressive regen) and eco mode (gummy pedal) and then only have to touch the brakes to come to a complete halt. I've yet to find a setting in the Model 3 that compares. You should go test drive something like the Model 3 as it's a very different driving experience to an ICE in terms of braking.

magduf 8y ago

>The Tesla vehicles are all direct drive with no gearbox. This is wrong. They have a single electric motor (except the dual-motor ones) and a fixed reduction gear box, just like the Leaf. No one does direct-drive electric motors because it's a lot easier to make a faster-spinning motor and then use a reduction gear to get usable torque from it; a direct-drive motor would have to have a huge diameter. >The maintenance schedule for an EV is annually changing the cabin filter, wiper blades, and doing a multi-point inspection. You're forgetting the brakes. EVs still have regular hydraulic brake systems that need new pads and fluid, though not as much because they can use regenerative braking much of the time, avoiding use of the friction brakes, which are really for emergency stops and full stops.

jki275 8y ago
I've seen claims by Tesla that their brakes never need service due to the fact they're barely used. Not sure how accurate that is, but it's sort of logical.
- magduf 8y ago
  Sounds like BS. Even if you almost never use them, brake fluid has a finite life and needs to be replaced every few years. Brake systems are never perfectly hermetically sealed and brake fluid is hygroscopic.
  - solarkraft 8y ago
    Plus: What about rust?
    - cptskippy 8y ago
      Rust is usually rubbed off when the brakes are engaged. Buildup on any vehicle is only really an issue when the vehicle sits undriven for long periods of time. In EVs the brakes are engaged, just less frequently and with less force. For example in a normal car when you depress the brake pedal gently to slow to a normal stop the brakes engage immediately. In an EV the regenerative braking force increases when you depress the brake pedal and only after it has hit 100% do the brakes engage. So with an ICE vehicle the brakes are the primary stopping force most of the time where as with an EV they're the secondary stopping force most of the time.
      - magduf 8y ago
        I think he may be referring to rust inside the brake lines. I've seen it before on an older vehicle that probably never had its brake fluid changed. Over time, moisture gets into the system and corrodes the steel brake lines, causing rust to get into the fluid. It's why you have to change the fluid every so often: it's impossible to keep moisture out, and the fluid is hygroscopic.
        cptskippy 8y ago
        Are you just going down my comment history and trying to misinterpret anything I say so that you can respond and feel good about yourself? Are you going to run home to mommy and say "look I won the internet today!"
        dang 8y ago
        Please don't engage in nasty spats on HN. If you think someone's behaving abusively, let us know at hn@ycombinator.com, and avoid breaking the site guidelines yourself. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
cptskippy 8y ago
> This is wrong. You're right. I was mistaken, I thought I had read that the Roadster was the only Tesla with a gearbox but that it was eliminated with a free upgrade. There's still a gearbox but it's a fixed single reduction gear. > You're forgetting the brakes. I wasn't, I was touching on the differences between an EV and an ICE with regards to maintenance. Brakes are a consumable that are inspected and changed as needed rather than at regular interval like the belts or fluids in an ICE vehicle. Brakes and brake fluid are part of the multi-point inspection that's done on all vehicles when they're serviced. As you pointed out, EVs use their brakes significantly less than ICE vehicles and so any maintenance of the brake system will be less frequent than an equivalent ICE vehicle. Overall EVs require significantly less maintenance to their drive/power-train AND to some of their traditional systems (e.g. brakes).
- throw0u1t 8y ago
  I'd like to refute the point about brakes. A lot of it is based on the driver, not just the vehicle. I've driven a manual all my life. I don't really enjoy automatics, and I've got to the point now where I've pretty much perfected rev matching and heel and toe so I can engine brake most of the time with minimal wear on my clutch and shock to my drive train. To be perfectly honest, I don't think I wear my brakes any faster than if I drove an electric car. I'd love to do an experiment to see if this was the case, it sounds like as lot of fun! However, I concede that most drivers are nowhere near as interested in the technicalities of driving and teaching learner drivers to rev match and heel and toe is probably too complex at that stage in their driving careers.
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    > However, I concede that most drivers are nowhere near as interested in the technicalities of driving and teaching learner drivers to rev match and heel and toe is probably too complex at that stage in their driving careers. For every ICE driver like you, there are an equal number of EV drivers trying to optimize their driving habits as well. The difference between ICE and EV when it comes to brake wear is that it's an active effort for an ICE driver and passive for an EV driver. The regenerative braking in an EV varies by make/model but the 1st gen. Nissan Leaf has by far the least aggressive system. With the Leaf, the brake engagement is based on a number of factors from how fast you're going to how hard you press on the brake. The Leaf will almost come to a complete halt simply by taking your foot off the accelerator and allowing the regen system to drag the car to a stop without ever depressing the brake. In stop-and-go traffic you rarely have to take your foot off the gas. In the Leaf when you depress the brake pedal the regenerative system ramps up quickly and only after it has peaked do the mechanical brakes engage. When stopping it's not uncommon to hear the mechanical brakes engage just as the car comes to a rest to hold the car at a stand still, it's an audible thunk. The Tesla Model 3's regenerative braking is quite aggressive compared to the Leaf and if you take your foot completely off the accelerator pedal you will lurch forward in your seat as the car quickly decelerates. I personally find the Leaf to be a much easier, and a lot less fun, to drive than the Model 3 because of how the brake regen systems work. In my 2015 Leaf I can engage hill mode (aggressive regen) and eco mode (gummy pedal) and then only have to touch the brakes to come to a complete halt. I've yet to find a setting in the Model 3 that compares. You should go test drive something like the Model 3 as it's a very different driving experience to an ICE in terms of braking.