9 ms·

At least 14,000 unpaid IRS workers did not show up for work

109 points by ddebernardy 8y ago

kevindqc 8y ago
It's a feature, not a bug!
- cryptonector 8y ago
  There needs to be some risk to being a public service employee. They practically cannot get fired. They should not get back-pay for government shutdown time they did not work. So, TSA agents, for example, absolutely should get back-pay (because they worked), but employees who got furloughed should not. And we should make it easier to fire public service employees for cause, and easier to downsize agencies (i.e., lay-off workers). Civil service protections need to be about politics, not so overarching that civil service employment carries zero risk.
  - Pulcinella 8y ago
    Why do you think there should just inherently be some risk?
    - vibrato 8y ago
      Because in life there is always risk. In this case offloaded to the taxpayer completely.
    - jerf 8y ago
      Life always has risk in it. If they have risk-free jobs, that means someone else is shouldering the burden of the resources expended to make that job risk-free. Said someone else is probably doing it without a risk-free job of their own. Is that fair? There'll be the temptation to muddy the waters with all sorts of things, like "how important" the government worker's work is. (The taxpayer's job can be perfectly well important too. You want to live without garbage collectors?) But that's all distractions. What right do they have to have such low-risk ("risk-free" is really not true, but there is certainly a qualitatively different degree of risk) jobs at the expense of people without such low-risk jobs?
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        Life isn't fair. If your job isn't risk free, you should be petitioning for unions and other labor protections, not dragging down those who do have those benefits. This is no different then when the minimum wage rises, and people who were making what is now the new minimum wage complain that they're underpaid now. They were underpaid before, it's just more obvious to them after the policy change. Don't be the crab pulling other crabs back into the pot. Help the other crabs get out, and consequently, helping you get out.
      - yongjik 8y ago
        > What right do they have to have such low-risk jobs at the expense of people ... Wow, if this isn't straight-up communism, I don't know what is.
  - bastawhiz 8y ago
    The ability for a person to earn a fair living, especially one that's not an extravagant salary, should never have unnecessary risk. It's one thing to be laid off. It's another to be told you're working without pay or are not allowed to seek other employment while furloughed.
    - leesalminen 8y ago
      Surely they knew of this risk when they accepted the job offer?
      - ceejayoz 8y ago
        Given that this shutdown has already set an all-time duration record, that's probably not fair to say.
      - gamblor956 8y ago
        They did not. IRS jobs are not "essential" within the meaning of the rules requiring certain governmental personnel to work during shutdowns. In a nutshell and highly simplified, but "essential" in the shutdown context means national security and transportation. It doesn't include functions that are nice to have, like quick processing of refunds.
      - bastawhiz 8y ago
        What would indicate to, say, a scientist taking a job earning a modest salary that they would be unable to earn a paycheck for over a month?
        cryptonector 8y ago
        The fact that shutdowns happen.
        dragontamer 8y ago
        This is literally a historic shutdown. Two missed paychecks in a single shutdown has never happened before in the history of the USA. This is the longest running shutdown in US History, and it isn't anywhere close to over yet.
  - benj111 8y ago
    Is it not the case in the US, that public sector employees tend to be paid less, in exchange for other things like job security, pensions etc?
    - gamblor956 8y ago
      That depends very highly on the particular job. Professional employees (lawyers, accountants, scientists) make less in government (usually much less), but non-professional employees usually make more in government.
      - oasisbob 8y ago
        How are you defining "professional" in this context? There's a classical sense of professional it seems you're reaching for, but I'm having a hard time thinking of a non-professional white-collar worker which would do better in federal government than the private sector. Eg, surveyors are clearly professionals. Software developers? IT?
        jki275 8y ago
        Software engineers, IT, EE, ME, tend to be paid significantly less than they would make outside of gov service. This of course varies a bit by level, but it's generally true.
    - garmaine 8y ago
      No, they tend to be just paid less, period. They pay and benefits is WAY better in the private sector, and job security is only partially true.
      - munk-a 8y ago
        This comment has been downvoted but I wanted to highlight that it is quite correct, people actually working in the public sector tend to be paid poorly compared to similar private sector jobs, this is a bit of a new trend where the previous generation in the US was more familiar with public sector jobs being good paying reliable jobs that could help secure a family into the middle income bracket but that time has passed. I am excluding, by the way, private contractors working in the public sector which tend to be grossly over paid but lack any sort of pension benefits.
  - dragontamer 8y ago
    Government employees are paid much MUCH less than their counterparts. The tacit agreement is that they get paid less but have more stability. Any NASA Aerospace engineer will make more at Lockheed Martin or Northrop Grumman. Its just the facts. Missiles and Weapons make more money than generic US Space research, even if one is more fundamentally important to the advancement of our civilization. Any IRS Tax-expert will make more money as an Corporate Accountant (who are paid to avoid taxes, instead of applying them fairly across the country).
  - munk-a 8y ago
    Most HN people work in a field where getting a new job is pretty trivial if you lose your current one - I've had job searches that have lasted as little as a few days (when I moved internationally), but most people are not in this situation. These workers are being denied an expected income - some of them are indeed not working for this income but they've been denied the ability to work for it. Everyone, even people who were allowed to seek separate work, should be paid their expected wage - this would even inject a bit of consumer power into our economy and might help reduce the long term effects this is having.
- threwawasy1228 8y ago
  If the shutdown keeps going to an extended period of time, it will be interesting to see the long term effects of having a large amount of entrenched bureaucrats suddenly removed and replaced by new ones. I think that in the future if this keeps going there will probably be noticeable policy differences and shifts in the bureaucracy after this. Definitely a point of history that people should look to for ripple effects later down the line.
  - zuminator 8y ago
    Replaced by new ones? Who's going to apply for a job with no prospect of getting paid, and where you'll be asked to perform not only your work but that of an increasing number of missing colleagues?
  - samstave 8y ago
    This, I feel, is an underrated observation. Critically think about the ripple effect of this situation: 1. It is clearly political shenanigans without a doubt, but; 2. Does this peal back the wool from the fact that, just maybe, we don't need this many government employees? 3. Reveals that senators who are both millionaires and still receiving pay, don't actually have your interests in mind 4. That taxes are wasted and a joke with respect to how they are implemented / allocated 5. that our security infrsastructure sold to us in the trillions is a 2-paycheck fragile sham (TSA) -- but the actual safety (Air Traffick Control) is in the same bucket? 6. That the media's only value is kvetching on the political bullshit of the literal moment (meaning: They teach nothing - only commentary) 7. the USA is a fealty based system beholden to literally a few hundred oligarchs 8. People have no recourse upstream. 9. People are apathetic to the entire display.
    - dragontamer 8y ago
      > 3. Reveals that senators who are both millionaires and still receiving pay, don't actually have your interests in mind Senator Pay is $174k, which is less than senior developers around the tech world. Your senior developer who frequents this site will make far more money than any Senator. The reason why Senators are millionares is because you need to be a millionare to even consider running for office (with all of the organization, ads, and stuff you need to buy...) > Critically think about the ripple effect of this situation: No. That's precisely WHY Republicans are shutting down the government. Because they want to push forward those viewpoints. Its why Republicans are so happy to keep things shut down: the longer things are shut down, the more their point is proven ("That Government is inefficient"). Its a fundamental advantage Republicans have to shutdowns. Every shutdown "proves their point" innately. ---------- Government workers make far less than their counterparts in the private world. A "Senator" is the leader of an entire State, but will make far less money than a typical executive at any ol company. Want to know where all of our good leaders have gone? They've gone into corporate leadership. Any ol' executive position at any major company will make multiples over a Senator or House member's salary.
snarfy 8y ago
This is how systemic failure happens. If things keep going like this restarting the government won't fix it.
- thecolorblue 8y ago
  I felt that there was this un-mentioned argument for the shutdown that it would only affect the first quarter of this year and then everything will be back to normal. To me, it is getting harder to believe that.
  - ganeshkrishnan 8y ago
    I don't think it will affect just the first quarter. Our whole team is flying for business to NYC next week and flights have been delayed and some cancelled. We are now thinking of carpooling and driving down or cancelling the event and this is just our startup. It will be impossible to quantify the damage done by this shutdown.
esotericn 8y ago
Good for them! Working without pay is completely nonsensical. The relationship between the employee and employer has been broken. If I were in some of these guys shoes I'd be working odd jobs to make ends meet.
- thecolorblue 8y ago
  Is it better to find short term solutions, like odd jobs, or to find new employment?
  - mikepurvis 8y ago
    Depending what you were doing for the IRS, there may not be a ton of other employment out there for your skill set, especially on a short time frame.
  - surge 8y ago
    "The IRS is also losing 25 IT staffers every week since the shutdown began, with many finding other jobs, one House aide said, citing the IRS officials' briefing." At least some are already doing this.
    - astrodust 8y ago
      You have to wonder how many of the remaining people are dedicating their time to updating their LinkedIn profile and searching for a new job...
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    One possible motivation for the administration holding out on the shutdown is it encourages people to leave the civil service; they've been fairly open previously about wanting to purge he federal civil service of those not loyal to Trump, either leaving holes or backfilling with loyalists. Civil service rules make this difficult, but driving people off with no pay (and publicly characterizing staying in that situation as a noble gesture of loyalty to the President, as some admin figures have done) is one way to do some.of that in a way which avoids civil service protections.
megaman8 8y ago
Seeing what republicans and democrats are doing to this country, i wonder if voters will start to consider alternative parties now.
- gameswithgo 8y ago
  You could mostly just get rid of Mitch Mconnel and Trump and most of the really bad stuff of late would be resolved.
  - tartuffe78 8y ago
    You could mostly just get rid of Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer and most of the really bad stuff of late would be resolved. /s
    - munk-a 8y ago
      Hrm, if only the republicans could control all three branches of the government, surely they'd be able to allocate funds if that were the case? I suspect that a lot of republican higher ups specifically avoided funding the border wall until they lost control of the house so they could manufacture this crisis (especially as the potential to fund the border wall was offered by democrats earlier and declined by republicans, and the senate passed a "just keep it open" bill before going on winter recess).
      - burfog 8y ago
        There is control, and then there is control. In the previous senate, less than half of the senators would reliably vote as republicans.
        munk-a 8y ago
        Yea I know, those ones tended to vote with Trump sometimes! In all serious I don't know if this was meant as sarcasm but party cohesion in the republican party is quite high, it's one of the reasons the republican minority was effective against Obama - senators would freely discard logic to toe the party line.
jgon 8y ago
The US has undergone a right-wing coup and apparently no one noticed it. The government has been "shut down" except actually only things that benefit poor people have been shut down and everything that rich people need has been deemed essential. Libraries, maintenance of public natural spaces like the parks, social services for the poor, being able to detect and punish tax evasion by the rich (aka the IRS)? All "non-essential". But let me assure that the various law enforcement agencies are still very fully funded, and ready to arrest you if you try to steal bread to eat. So it's not a full government shutdown, it's a shutdown of services that might benefit the poor or threaten the rich, while making sure that the richest in society still have all the benefits of the powerful US government. In another country we'd call this a coup, but in the US it's just par for the course I guess.
- Jtsummers 8y ago
  I want to clarify something: > But let me assure that the various law enforcement agencies are still very fully funded, and ready to arrest you if you try to steal bread to eat. Local law enforcement, yes. Because they may use federal dollars but aren't wholly reliant on them. But federal law enforcement is not getting paid right now. The military is, and DoD civilians. But Homeland Security did not receive a funding bill last fall so they're going unpaid.
  - mempko 8y ago
    So what you are saying is Trump is risking the countries security for a wall.
    - Jtsummers 8y ago
      Yes. Trump is literally risking the security of the country for a wall (and only a downpayment on the wall).
    - vkou 8y ago
      He doesn't want the wall, he wants to deport people protected by DACA.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
anticensor 8y ago
Workaround: Use conscripts.
- munk-a 8y ago
  Actually my family (rather liberal) were discussing over the winter break that it wouldn't be terrible to see a WPA sort of resolution to this wall business, using hired unskilled labour under the direction of the army corps of engineers would likely give our economy a nice booster shot.
aerophilic 8y ago
Honest question: If someone who isn’t paid for a job “quits”, are they forgoing pay for when pay gets re-authorized? I ask because I feel as a country we are getting close to just accepting the shutdown can last forever. If that is the case, and since a large percentage of folks don’t even have $400 to ride out an emergency, what happens if they choose to say “enough is enough” and try to get a different job? Are they permanently out the pay they earned by working without pay?
- module0000 8y ago
  Adding to that... if they were "ordered" back to work, can they face any penalty by quitting? If so, it seems like a liability to be a federal employee in these times. edit: typo
- imgabe 8y ago
  I don't think they can forfeit the pay for the hours they worked. Employers are required by law to pay for all hours worked at the agreed upon rate. I assume if they quit they'd still be owed that pay and they'd get a check when the government re-opened.
  - barkingcat 8y ago
    Remember, this is the federal government and thus the government can change the laws through legislation or via presidential order.
    - imgabe 8y ago
      Through legislation, yes. Presidential order, no. It is very, very unlikely that Congress would pass a law saying the government doesn't have to pay its employees like every other employer. Even if they did, such a law would be unconstitutional because slavery is explicitly illegal under the 13th Amendment. They would have to amend the constitution to make that law work and something that wildly unpopular is not going to happen. In fact Congress passed a law stating the opposite, that even Federal employees who are not required to work will receive back pay for the time the government was shutdown.
eric_khun 8y ago
1/ What will be the impact for US economy? Are we already see any economic impact? 2/ Are people who showed up at work will get paid for those past weeks?
- finaliteration 8y ago
  > Are people who showed up at work will get paid for those past weeks? Employees of the federal government will get back pay, at least according to the NYT and others. However, they aren’t currently eligible to collect any sort of unemployment (because they’re technically “working”), and contractors who work with the government aren’t guaranteed back pay.
- zaroth 8y ago
  Even government employees who don't show up for work will get back pay. Hence the high number of no-shows.
- manicdee 8y ago
  The economic impact started when the shutdown began and furloughed employees stopped their discretionary spending because they had no idea how long they would have to stretch out that last pay check and life savings. By the time the effects of the economic downturn are visible (such as airports cancelling flights because they have insufficient traffic control), you can expect that the damage done will take years to unwind. Just because you get back pay in a month or two doesn't mean you return to the previous level of discretionary spending immediately. You are now a consumer with lack of confidence in the economy. You don't know when the next Presidential tantrum is going to shut down the government. This will affect all the services that government employees used on a daily basis: cafes, restaurants, laundromats, house cleaning, gardeners, etc. Consumer confidence may not return till long after this president is ejected, assuming the USA actually has any more presidential elections and the Tumpists don't just take over the country.
beart 8y ago
I wonder if the historical unpopularity of the IRS will change after this shutdown.
crb002 8y ago
After 10 days without pay they can walk as per loss of their liberty and property interests under https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goss_v._Lopez https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goss_v._Lopez and the 13th Amendment.
tshannon 8y ago
I can't help but wonder what impact this is going to have years or decades in to the future. The government has had a hard time as it is to keep positions filled as they are competing with better pay in the private sector. Who would ever want to work for the government if whether or not you're getting paid is constantly up in the air.
- prmph 8y ago
  Maybe, for the right wing, this situation is working out as intended. They want to starve the beast (government) into becoming as small as possible. Trying to show that things can go on just fine without much of the government, and reducing the attractiveness of government jobs, are all means to this end
  - rabidrat 8y ago
    I think this is exactly what is happening, and why the GOP senators are complicit with the shutdown.
    - bwb 8y ago
      Which is frustrating as its a self-fulfilling prophesy, treat people like shit, and when that department/gov agency doesn't work well blame it on vague big government rather than the fact you don't pay competitively and you ran out everyone who had talent. Government service should be honored, these people take a pay cut in most cases to keep OUR society running. I miss the days when public service was respected.
      - FeloniousHam 8y ago
        > Government service should be honored, these people take a pay cut in most cases to keep OUR society running. Government "service" is just a job, and these people take a pay cut in exchange for job security (and in the cases I'm personally familiar with, fantastic health insurance). The shutdown is nonsensical, expensive, and a pointless hardship for everyone affected, but there's no need to elevate government employees to sainthood.
jarjoura 8y ago
It’s interesting to note that some credit card companies are allowing government employees carry extra balances and not pay them off during this shutdown. However, I do wonder if they will be charging interest on that balance. If not, then all is fine. If they are, well then this just adds to the total cost of the shutdown :/.
microtherion 8y ago
I called the IRS this week to try to resolve a long pending matter. Hold time was pretty bad, and I was told that at the time being, no progress could be made on the issue due to lack of staffing. But I was utterly impressed at the courtesy and positive attitude of the employee who handled my call. I don't know if I could bring that much professionalism to my work if I hadn't been paid in a month.
somethingle234 8y ago
It seems very dumb to stop paying federal workers when government shutdowns. This is a perfect way to squeeze senates whose most fanbase consists of federal workers. I don't really understand what stops government from conitinueing paying salary. Are they running out money? I'm gonna go ahead and guess that federal workers' salary is probably a fraction of US annual budget.
zaroth 8y ago
I read about a half dozen news articles including from CNN, NBC, and Washington Post on this. None of them make clear the fact that these workers will receive back pay after the shutdown whether they work or not. The IRS.gov has a FAQ site [1] which says that they will get back pay, and they will have to repay any unemployment benefits taken when that happens, even if they claim a hardship exemption. This to me changes the story. Claim the exemption and you can work in the gig economy and get paid twice. Or go back to work and wait to get paid when the shutdown is over. I can see why so many are choosing to claim the exemption. [1] - https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/employee-frequently-asked-questions-furlough-procedures https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/employee-frequently-asked-quest...
- Jtsummers 8y ago
  That they will receive backpay has been settled (signed law) for about 10 days now and made headlines on all those sites.
  - zaroth 8y ago
    The top comment here is “Good for them! Working without pay is completely nonsensical.” But that’s literally not what’s happened. The choice was get paid vacation or come into work. Either way they will be paid. Any article that states the work is unpaid, without clarifying the work will be paid but late, is factually incorrect and misleading. And that’s most of them.

109 points by ddebernardy 8y ago

kevindqc 8y ago

It's a feature, not a bug!

cryptonector 8y ago
There needs to be some risk to being a public service employee. They practically cannot get fired. They should not get back-pay for government shutdown time they did not work. So, TSA agents, for example, absolutely should get back-pay (because they worked), but employees who got furloughed should not. And we should make it easier to fire public service employees for cause, and easier to downsize agencies (i.e., lay-off workers). Civil service protections need to be about politics, not so overarching that civil service employment carries zero risk.
- Pulcinella 8y ago
  Why do you think there should just inherently be some risk?
  - vibrato 8y ago
    Because in life there is always risk. In this case offloaded to the taxpayer completely.
  - jerf 8y ago
    Life always has risk in it. If they have risk-free jobs, that means someone else is shouldering the burden of the resources expended to make that job risk-free. Said someone else is probably doing it without a risk-free job of their own. Is that fair? There'll be the temptation to muddy the waters with all sorts of things, like "how important" the government worker's work is. (The taxpayer's job can be perfectly well important too. You want to live without garbage collectors?) But that's all distractions. What right do they have to have such low-risk ("risk-free" is really not true, but there is certainly a qualitatively different degree of risk) jobs at the expense of people without such low-risk jobs?
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      Life isn't fair. If your job isn't risk free, you should be petitioning for unions and other labor protections, not dragging down those who do have those benefits. This is no different then when the minimum wage rises, and people who were making what is now the new minimum wage complain that they're underpaid now. They were underpaid before, it's just more obvious to them after the policy change. Don't be the crab pulling other crabs back into the pot. Help the other crabs get out, and consequently, helping you get out.
    - yongjik 8y ago
      > What right do they have to have such low-risk jobs at the expense of people ... Wow, if this isn't straight-up communism, I don't know what is.
- bastawhiz 8y ago
  The ability for a person to earn a fair living, especially one that's not an extravagant salary, should never have unnecessary risk. It's one thing to be laid off. It's another to be told you're working without pay or are not allowed to seek other employment while furloughed.
  - leesalminen 8y ago
    Surely they knew of this risk when they accepted the job offer?
    - ceejayoz 8y ago
      Given that this shutdown has already set an all-time duration record, that's probably not fair to say.
    - gamblor956 8y ago
      They did not. IRS jobs are not "essential" within the meaning of the rules requiring certain governmental personnel to work during shutdowns. In a nutshell and highly simplified, but "essential" in the shutdown context means national security and transportation. It doesn't include functions that are nice to have, like quick processing of refunds.
    - bastawhiz 8y ago
      What would indicate to, say, a scientist taking a job earning a modest salary that they would be unable to earn a paycheck for over a month?
      - cryptonector 8y ago
        The fact that shutdowns happen.
        dragontamer 8y ago
        This is literally a historic shutdown. Two missed paychecks in a single shutdown has never happened before in the history of the USA. This is the longest running shutdown in US History, and it isn't anywhere close to over yet.
- benj111 8y ago
  Is it not the case in the US, that public sector employees tend to be paid less, in exchange for other things like job security, pensions etc?
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    That depends very highly on the particular job. Professional employees (lawyers, accountants, scientists) make less in government (usually much less), but non-professional employees usually make more in government.
    - oasisbob 8y ago
      How are you defining "professional" in this context? There's a classical sense of professional it seems you're reaching for, but I'm having a hard time thinking of a non-professional white-collar worker which would do better in federal government than the private sector. Eg, surveyors are clearly professionals. Software developers? IT?
      - jki275 8y ago
        Software engineers, IT, EE, ME, tend to be paid significantly less than they would make outside of gov service. This of course varies a bit by level, but it's generally true.
  - garmaine 8y ago
    No, they tend to be just paid less, period. They pay and benefits is WAY better in the private sector, and job security is only partially true.
    - munk-a 8y ago
      This comment has been downvoted but I wanted to highlight that it is quite correct, people actually working in the public sector tend to be paid poorly compared to similar private sector jobs, this is a bit of a new trend where the previous generation in the US was more familiar with public sector jobs being good paying reliable jobs that could help secure a family into the middle income bracket but that time has passed. I am excluding, by the way, private contractors working in the public sector which tend to be grossly over paid but lack any sort of pension benefits.
- dragontamer 8y ago
  Government employees are paid much MUCH less than their counterparts. The tacit agreement is that they get paid less but have more stability. Any NASA Aerospace engineer will make more at Lockheed Martin or Northrop Grumman. Its just the facts. Missiles and Weapons make more money than generic US Space research, even if one is more fundamentally important to the advancement of our civilization. Any IRS Tax-expert will make more money as an Corporate Accountant (who are paid to avoid taxes, instead of applying them fairly across the country).
- munk-a 8y ago
  Most HN people work in a field where getting a new job is pretty trivial if you lose your current one - I've had job searches that have lasted as little as a few days (when I moved internationally), but most people are not in this situation. These workers are being denied an expected income - some of them are indeed not working for this income but they've been denied the ability to work for it. Everyone, even people who were allowed to seek separate work, should be paid their expected wage - this would even inject a bit of consumer power into our economy and might help reduce the long term effects this is having.
threwawasy1228 8y ago
If the shutdown keeps going to an extended period of time, it will be interesting to see the long term effects of having a large amount of entrenched bureaucrats suddenly removed and replaced by new ones. I think that in the future if this keeps going there will probably be noticeable policy differences and shifts in the bureaucracy after this. Definitely a point of history that people should look to for ripple effects later down the line.
- zuminator 8y ago
  Replaced by new ones? Who's going to apply for a job with no prospect of getting paid, and where you'll be asked to perform not only your work but that of an increasing number of missing colleagues?
- samstave 8y ago
  This, I feel, is an underrated observation. Critically think about the ripple effect of this situation: 1. It is clearly political shenanigans without a doubt, but; 2. Does this peal back the wool from the fact that, just maybe, we don't need this many government employees? 3. Reveals that senators who are both millionaires and still receiving pay, don't actually have your interests in mind 4. That taxes are wasted and a joke with respect to how they are implemented / allocated 5. that our security infrsastructure sold to us in the trillions is a 2-paycheck fragile sham (TSA) -- but the actual safety (Air Traffick Control) is in the same bucket? 6. That the media's only value is kvetching on the political bullshit of the literal moment (meaning: They teach nothing - only commentary) 7. the USA is a fealty based system beholden to literally a few hundred oligarchs 8. People have no recourse upstream. 9. People are apathetic to the entire display.
  - dragontamer 8y ago
    > 3. Reveals that senators who are both millionaires and still receiving pay, don't actually have your interests in mind Senator Pay is $174k, which is less than senior developers around the tech world. Your senior developer who frequents this site will make far more money than any Senator. The reason why Senators are millionares is because you need to be a millionare to even consider running for office (with all of the organization, ads, and stuff you need to buy...) > Critically think about the ripple effect of this situation: No. That's precisely WHY Republicans are shutting down the government. Because they want to push forward those viewpoints. Its why Republicans are so happy to keep things shut down: the longer things are shut down, the more their point is proven ("That Government is inefficient"). Its a fundamental advantage Republicans have to shutdowns. Every shutdown "proves their point" innately. ---------- Government workers make far less than their counterparts in the private world. A "Senator" is the leader of an entire State, but will make far less money than a typical executive at any ol company. Want to know where all of our good leaders have gone? They've gone into corporate leadership. Any ol' executive position at any major company will make multiples over a Senator or House member's salary.

snarfy 8y ago

This is how systemic failure happens. If things keep going like this restarting the government won't fix it.

thecolorblue 8y ago
I felt that there was this un-mentioned argument for the shutdown that it would only affect the first quarter of this year and then everything will be back to normal. To me, it is getting harder to believe that.
- ganeshkrishnan 8y ago
  I don't think it will affect just the first quarter. Our whole team is flying for business to NYC next week and flights have been delayed and some cancelled. We are now thinking of carpooling and driving down or cancelling the event and this is just our startup. It will be impossible to quantify the damage done by this shutdown.

esotericn 8y ago

Good for them! Working without pay is completely nonsensical. The relationship between the employee and employer has been broken. If I were in some of these guys shoes I'd be working odd jobs to make ends meet.

thecolorblue 8y ago
Is it better to find short term solutions, like odd jobs, or to find new employment?
- mikepurvis 8y ago
  Depending what you were doing for the IRS, there may not be a ton of other employment out there for your skill set, especially on a short time frame.
- surge 8y ago
  "The IRS is also losing 25 IT staffers every week since the shutdown began, with many finding other jobs, one House aide said, citing the IRS officials' briefing." At least some are already doing this.
  - astrodust 8y ago
    You have to wonder how many of the remaining people are dedicating their time to updating their LinkedIn profile and searching for a new job...
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  One possible motivation for the administration holding out on the shutdown is it encourages people to leave the civil service; they've been fairly open previously about wanting to purge he federal civil service of those not loyal to Trump, either leaving holes or backfilling with loyalists. Civil service rules make this difficult, but driving people off with no pay (and publicly characterizing staying in that situation as a noble gesture of loyalty to the President, as some admin figures have done) is one way to do some.of that in a way which avoids civil service protections.

megaman8 8y ago

Seeing what republicans and democrats are doing to this country, i wonder if voters will start to consider alternative parties now.

gameswithgo 8y ago
You could mostly just get rid of Mitch Mconnel and Trump and most of the really bad stuff of late would be resolved.
- tartuffe78 8y ago
  You could mostly just get rid of Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer and most of the really bad stuff of late would be resolved. /s
  - munk-a 8y ago
    Hrm, if only the republicans could control all three branches of the government, surely they'd be able to allocate funds if that were the case? I suspect that a lot of republican higher ups specifically avoided funding the border wall until they lost control of the house so they could manufacture this crisis (especially as the potential to fund the border wall was offered by democrats earlier and declined by republicans, and the senate passed a "just keep it open" bill before going on winter recess).
    - burfog 8y ago
      There is control, and then there is control. In the previous senate, less than half of the senators would reliably vote as republicans.
      - munk-a 8y ago
        Yea I know, those ones tended to vote with Trump sometimes! In all serious I don't know if this was meant as sarcasm but party cohesion in the republican party is quite high, it's one of the reasons the republican minority was effective against Obama - senators would freely discard logic to toe the party line.

jgon 8y ago

The US has undergone a right-wing coup and apparently no one noticed it. The government has been "shut down" except actually only things that benefit poor people have been shut down and everything that rich people need has been deemed essential. Libraries, maintenance of public natural spaces like the parks, social services for the poor, being able to detect and punish tax evasion by the rich (aka the IRS)? All "non-essential". But let me assure that the various law enforcement agencies are still very fully funded, and ready to arrest you if you try to steal bread to eat. So it's not a full government shutdown, it's a shutdown of services that might benefit the poor or threaten the rich, while making sure that the richest in society still have all the benefits of the powerful US government. In another country we'd call this a coup, but in the US it's just par for the course I guess.

Jtsummers 8y ago
I want to clarify something: > But let me assure that the various law enforcement agencies are still very fully funded, and ready to arrest you if you try to steal bread to eat. Local law enforcement, yes. Because they may use federal dollars but aren't wholly reliant on them. But federal law enforcement is not getting paid right now. The military is, and DoD civilians. But Homeland Security did not receive a funding bill last fall so they're going unpaid.
- mempko 8y ago
  So what you are saying is Trump is risking the countries security for a wall.
  - Jtsummers 8y ago
    Yes. Trump is literally risking the security of the country for a wall (and only a downpayment on the wall).
  - vkou 8y ago
    He doesn't want the wall, he wants to deport people protected by DACA.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

anticensor 8y ago

Workaround: Use conscripts.

munk-a 8y ago
Actually my family (rather liberal) were discussing over the winter break that it wouldn't be terrible to see a WPA sort of resolution to this wall business, using hired unskilled labour under the direction of the army corps of engineers would likely give our economy a nice booster shot.

aerophilic 8y ago

Honest question: If someone who isn’t paid for a job “quits”, are they forgoing pay for when pay gets re-authorized? I ask because I feel as a country we are getting close to just accepting the shutdown can last forever. If that is the case, and since a large percentage of folks don’t even have $400 to ride out an emergency, what happens if they choose to say “enough is enough” and try to get a different job? Are they permanently out the pay they earned by working without pay?

module0000 8y ago
Adding to that... if they were "ordered" back to work, can they face any penalty by quitting? If so, it seems like a liability to be a federal employee in these times. edit: typo
imgabe 8y ago
I don't think they can forfeit the pay for the hours they worked. Employers are required by law to pay for all hours worked at the agreed upon rate. I assume if they quit they'd still be owed that pay and they'd get a check when the government re-opened.
- barkingcat 8y ago
  Remember, this is the federal government and thus the government can change the laws through legislation or via presidential order.
  - imgabe 8y ago
    Through legislation, yes. Presidential order, no. It is very, very unlikely that Congress would pass a law saying the government doesn't have to pay its employees like every other employer. Even if they did, such a law would be unconstitutional because slavery is explicitly illegal under the 13th Amendment. They would have to amend the constitution to make that law work and something that wildly unpopular is not going to happen. In fact Congress passed a law stating the opposite, that even Federal employees who are not required to work will receive back pay for the time the government was shutdown.

eric_khun 8y ago

1/ What will be the impact for US economy? Are we already see any economic impact? 2/ Are people who showed up at work will get paid for those past weeks?

finaliteration 8y ago
> Are people who showed up at work will get paid for those past weeks? Employees of the federal government will get back pay, at least according to the NYT and others. However, they aren’t currently eligible to collect any sort of unemployment (because they’re technically “working”), and contractors who work with the government aren’t guaranteed back pay.
zaroth 8y ago
Even government employees who don't show up for work will get back pay. Hence the high number of no-shows.
manicdee 8y ago
The economic impact started when the shutdown began and furloughed employees stopped their discretionary spending because they had no idea how long they would have to stretch out that last pay check and life savings. By the time the effects of the economic downturn are visible (such as airports cancelling flights because they have insufficient traffic control), you can expect that the damage done will take years to unwind. Just because you get back pay in a month or two doesn't mean you return to the previous level of discretionary spending immediately. You are now a consumer with lack of confidence in the economy. You don't know when the next Presidential tantrum is going to shut down the government. This will affect all the services that government employees used on a daily basis: cafes, restaurants, laundromats, house cleaning, gardeners, etc. Consumer confidence may not return till long after this president is ejected, assuming the USA actually has any more presidential elections and the Tumpists don't just take over the country.

beart 8y ago

I wonder if the historical unpopularity of the IRS will change after this shutdown.

crb002 8y ago

After 10 days without pay they can walk as per loss of their liberty and property interests under https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goss_v._Lopez https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goss_v._Lopez and the 13th Amendment.

tshannon 8y ago

I can't help but wonder what impact this is going to have years or decades in to the future. The government has had a hard time as it is to keep positions filled as they are competing with better pay in the private sector. Who would ever want to work for the government if whether or not you're getting paid is constantly up in the air.

prmph 8y ago
Maybe, for the right wing, this situation is working out as intended. They want to starve the beast (government) into becoming as small as possible. Trying to show that things can go on just fine without much of the government, and reducing the attractiveness of government jobs, are all means to this end
- rabidrat 8y ago
  I think this is exactly what is happening, and why the GOP senators are complicit with the shutdown.
  - bwb 8y ago
    Which is frustrating as its a self-fulfilling prophesy, treat people like shit, and when that department/gov agency doesn't work well blame it on vague big government rather than the fact you don't pay competitively and you ran out everyone who had talent. Government service should be honored, these people take a pay cut in most cases to keep OUR society running. I miss the days when public service was respected.
    - FeloniousHam 8y ago
      > Government service should be honored, these people take a pay cut in most cases to keep OUR society running. Government "service" is just a job, and these people take a pay cut in exchange for job security (and in the cases I'm personally familiar with, fantastic health insurance). The shutdown is nonsensical, expensive, and a pointless hardship for everyone affected, but there's no need to elevate government employees to sainthood.

jarjoura 8y ago

It’s interesting to note that some credit card companies are allowing government employees carry extra balances and not pay them off during this shutdown. However, I do wonder if they will be charging interest on that balance. If not, then all is fine. If they are, well then this just adds to the total cost of the shutdown :/.

microtherion 8y ago

I called the IRS this week to try to resolve a long pending matter. Hold time was pretty bad, and I was told that at the time being, no progress could be made on the issue due to lack of staffing. But I was utterly impressed at the courtesy and positive attitude of the employee who handled my call. I don't know if I could bring that much professionalism to my work if I hadn't been paid in a month.

somethingle234 8y ago

It seems very dumb to stop paying federal workers when government shutdowns. This is a perfect way to squeeze senates whose most fanbase consists of federal workers. I don't really understand what stops government from conitinueing paying salary. Are they running out money? I'm gonna go ahead and guess that federal workers' salary is probably a fraction of US annual budget.

zaroth 8y ago

I read about a half dozen news articles including from CNN, NBC, and Washington Post on this. None of them make clear the fact that these workers will receive back pay after the shutdown whether they work or not. The IRS.gov has a FAQ site [1] which says that they will get back pay, and they will have to repay any unemployment benefits taken when that happens, even if they claim a hardship exemption. This to me changes the story. Claim the exemption and you can work in the gig economy and get paid twice. Or go back to work and wait to get paid when the shutdown is over. I can see why so many are choosing to claim the exemption. [1] - https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/employee-frequently-asked-questions-furlough-procedures https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/employee-frequently-asked-quest...

Jtsummers 8y ago
That they will receive backpay has been settled (signed law) for about 10 days now and made headlines on all those sites.
- zaroth 8y ago
  The top comment here is “Good for them! Working without pay is completely nonsensical.” But that’s literally not what’s happened. The choice was get paid vacation or come into work. Either way they will be paid. Any article that states the work is unpaid, without clarifying the work will be paid but late, is factually incorrect and misleading. And that’s most of them.