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I've seen too many people say, "Oh, government workers should all know this stuff happens all the time, and if they don't have months or years of savings in the

• reaperducer 8y ago
  It's really sad that instead of being compassionate I think it's city-to-city. Some cities are just grumpy toward people who experience misfortune. Others are not. In one city I was in recently, the churches organized a round-robin nightly banquet for furloughed federal workers so they can get a good meal, and household supplies, and help with their basic bills each night. In Las Vegas, the city is putting on a big picnic in the main park this weekend for federal workers with free food, supplies, and support services. When I paid bills online this past weekend, almost every bank and utility web site I went to had a banner across the top reading "Affected by the federal shutdown? Let us know so we can help." I haven't seen this everywhere, though. It depends on the type of city in which they live.
• creaghpatr 8y ago
  It's the same way for families who live in border communities. Only the problem doesn't immediately evaporate when the government reopens. Federal workers will likely be backpaid, but a victim of illegal immigrant-perpetrated murders or sexual assualt can never be repaid.
• flyingpenguin 8y ago
  The thing that really bothers me about that "They should have savings" logic, is the expectation that they should have to use them. Yes. They should have savings. EVERYONE should have min 3 months of income in savings. No one should be expected to use it.
  • toomuchtodo 8y ago
    In no first world country should you be afraid that your child will die because you can't pay your electric bill because you're not getting paid for a job you're forced to work. > A Kentucky family whose main source of income was lost because of the partial government shutdown worries they will soon loose the ability to care for their 15-month-old daughter who needs special equipment to stay alive. https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/01/25/furloughed-family-breathing-tube-shutdown-randi-kaye-dnt-ac-vpx.cnn https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2019/01/25/furloughed-fa...
    • geofft 8y ago
      Honest question: I still don't understand how the "federal workers must work during furlough" thing doesn't violate the 13th Amendment. What's the story there?
      • shhehebehdh 8y ago
        It’s not that they literally must work. It’s that they can be fired for not showing up despite going without pay. Any private employer could also try this, although it’s questionable whether or how long people would put up with it. When the government is the employer, there’s some level of confidence that at least you’ll get paid in the future, whereas with a private employer once they stop paying on time they usually are going to continue to have trouble making payroll until they fold.
        • UncleMeat 8y ago
          Military personnel have to work.
          • jki275 8y ago
            Just to amplify, military personnel can be court martialed and sent to prison if they refuse to show up -- paid or unpaid.
          • 8y ago
• awinder 8y ago
  This is the longest shutdown ever, so we're kinda past the "reasonable expectation" line when you're in uncharted historical waters...
  • clarkevans 8y ago
    In many western countries, when a government can't form a working coalition or agree on a budget, new elections are called.
    • pjc50 8y ago
      Yes, this is a feature of Westminster systems, although it's actually possible to have a change of government in that situation without having fresh elections if enough MPs "cross the floor" or a coalition flips. We're extremely close to that now in Brexit.
    • javagram 8y ago
      The US system is so archaic at this point, the founding fathers never anticipated the federal government budget being this important to the country. Provisions for dealing with something like a shutdown just aren’t in the constitution other than 2/3 supermajority requirements for veto override or impeachment, which is a recipe for gridlock. Many US states have much more sane budgeting systems and manage to run even under divided government without issue.
      • warrenm 8y ago
        >a recipe for gridlock That was the whole point of how the government of the US was designed: it's supposed to be hard to "get things done" at the federal level
        • javagram 8y ago
          Yea, because the feds were supposed to only handle post roads, the military, and free trade between the states and tariffs on international commerce. The modern welfare state, where millions of people are immediately hurt by the federal system grinding to a halt and stopping, would have been anathema to the framers. Nevertheless by popular vote such programs have been federalized and now we have a constitution that doesn’t support their smooth operation.
• derekp7 8y ago
  I was wondering if federal workers have an equivalent to 401k that they can take a loan from (TSP I think it is called)? Or are there a large number of affected employees that don't participate in this program?
  • tkwj 8y ago
    This facility does exist but it also requires a repayment schedule to be set up. Even this assumes the system and people behind tsp.gov are actively processing loans. https://www.tsp.gov/PlanningTools/Calculators/loanPayments.html https://www.tsp.gov/PlanningTools/Calculators/loanPayments.h...
  • wonderwonder 8y ago
    Its very possible that if such a program does exist, the people in charge of running a program like that are currently not working.
• bouncing 8y ago
  When I was a kid, my dad was deciding between two engineering jobs; one for the US Department of Commerce and another in the private sector for a big aerospace contractor. The private sector one paid more, I remember, but my mother brought up to my dad something interesting: You're less likely to get laid off, and you'll always have more job security, with the stable paycheck provided by a government job. It's weird to think about it, but at this point in time, the United States Government may be one of the worst major employers in the country. Two missed pay periods, unstable leadership, no yearly budget, massive deficits, constantly changing its mind.
  • akhilcacharya 8y ago
    If this country was actually run like a business, the CEO would be fired by now.
    • busterarm 8y ago
      In a real business, the finance department and the CEO wouldn't be locking horns over what to use company money for and it would never block payroll.
      • bilbo0s 8y ago
        In fairness it's not really the finance department and the ceo, it's the ceo and the board locking horns. And the ceo and the board decided to shutdown the whole company until they get their little tiff ironed out. (Which, yeah, was a pretty dumb idea. But the ceo and the board are kind of known for having dumb ideas.)
        • busterarm 8y ago
          No, it really is the finance department. Boards vote on the CEO and serve as his advisors and that is certainly not the correct metaphor. More importantly, Congress sets the budget through the House and Senate budget committees, which then draft and pass appropriations bills. This is the point in the process where we are stuck. The President is saying "bring me budget bills that have the things I want and I won't veto them" and Congress is saying no. It's nothing new really, barely anyone knows basic civics and so people are letting their emotions drive their opinions. Both parties here are playing games that affect peoples' lives and are both worthy of blame.
• fiveoak 8y ago
  A lot of people have a hard time showing empathy for others. Part of it can be due to immaturity or being overly sheltered, lack of social skills, etc. It's easy to be critical of others that make bad decisions but EVERYONE makes bad decisions, being imperfect and making mistakes is part of being human, and what might be easy for one person might not be easy for another person.
  • Arete31415 8y ago
    Yes. Talk about blaming the victim. We're putting 800,000 out of work for no reason and it's their fault? Give me a break.
  • czbond 8y ago
    I don't think it is that it isn't understood that people make different lifestyle and economic decisions and we all pay for our decisions somehow no matter what they are; The sensationalism, victimization blaming, and "woe is me" that a small minority and media raise. No one is entitled to income, a job, or having others pay for their expenses. It is a "take the lump, become stronger, make a plan for now and later, accept it, move on" situation. I feel empathy but can parse the humanity from economic decisions. That said, workers should be paid during a shutdown.
    • HarryHirsch 8y ago
      No one is entitled to income, a job, or having others pay for their expenses That is an assertion, not a statement of fact. Christian values actually teach the exact opposite, and that's why Jesus said that one cannot serve God and Mammon at the same time.
      • HashHishBang 8y ago
        >That is an assertion, not a statement of fact. Pfft, according to you? Calling it an assertion suggests the statement lacks some form of support from reality. As opposed to the very clear fact that humans in the world are not entitled to income, a job, or having other pay for their expense. Christian values having nothing to do with this and bringing religion into the mix won't help the discussion.
• justaguyhere 8y ago
  Lack of compassion/empathy is a much bigger problem than we can imagine, I realize it more and more as I grow older. If we pause for a minute and watch the words and actions of people around us (or even our own) intentionally, we can see how little empathy a lot of us have.
  • toomuchtodo 8y ago
    As I've grown older, I've come to this conclusion. It is a moral imperative to be compassionate and have empathy, to be prepared and not surprised whatsoever when those you interact with have neither, and have enough strength and resources (physically, emotionally, financially, politically) when those without are harming others and you must intervene. You should love your fellow human, but be prepared to punch a bully in the face.
  • UnFleshedOne 8y ago
    Empathy is a fairly limiting mechanism actually, it doesn't scale at all -- as they say "one death is a tragedy, million deaths is a statistic", that's how empathy works. Empathy makes people feel bad for 1 person not making ends meet because of delayed payments, but they don't feel 800k more bad because 800k people are in that situation. Using feelings to arrive at conclusions at those scales simply doesn't work. There were studies where people felt less urge (willing to spend less on charity for example) to help 100 people out of 10000 than to help 10 people out of 20. We should have less empathy and more reasoned compassion and we should try to consciously scale it appropriately.
• jhpriestley 8y ago
  the whole debate is beside the point anyway. If federal workers all magically had 5 months savings then the shutdown would just go on for 6 months. Or until it caused unbearable hardship for other groups like food stamp recipients. It's a game of chicken, the whole point is to cause a ramp up of pain and suffering until one side caves.
  • rjf72 8y ago
    Food stamps run out in March which generally sets a deadline to any shutdown. If it reaches that far the side that relies on the foodstamp vote will end up being forced to agree to practically anything. Even setting pragmatic politics aside, when the food stamps run out you're likely to see urban riots, looting, and so on that would rapidly force a the same concession in any case. I would be extremely surprised if the shutdown reached February since the closer we get to the March, the more leverage this side loses.
• toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
  Part of the people saying that are, at this point, just parroting the party line from the White House, which is basically “Suck it up” and “Get a loan” respectively. Part of it seems to be a general lack of empathy, and some of it is glee from people who think that the first step to a better world is destroying the government. All told, it’s a lack of individual capacity for thought, lack of empathy, and in many cases a true lack of imagination. Never underestimate just how far beyond the capacity of some it is to truly imagine circumstances other than their own, especially when that limited capacity makes them feel better about themselves.
• j2kun 8y ago
  Yes, and also, they're just wrong about this "happening all the time." The tactic of shutting down the government for political gain is a recent (and clearly more common) strategy. Before the 90's turned politics into warfare, shutdowns were very rare.
• wongarsu 8y ago
  > I've seen too many people say, "Oh, government workers should all know this stuff happens all the time The thing is: it doesn't happen all the time. In the last 20 years there were 3 government shutdowns. Before Trump took office we were down to one shutdown in 20 years.
• SilasX 8y ago
  Even ignoring compassion, you should at least be worried that events like these will make people more reluctant to work for the federal government, meaning the government will have to offer more payment to cover the risk, and thus taxpayers will have to pay more for the same services. Edit: Or maybe not -- if the result of the 80s ATC strike is any indicator, the result will be more like "do nothing about pay, kvetch about the shortage of people willing to work for the federal government".
• Wowfunhappy 8y ago
  Not to mention, if having months of savings in the bank in case of shutdowns is a requirement for holding a government job, working for the government just got a lot less appealing. This whole event is going to lead to long term loss of talent.
• mlthoughts2018 8y ago
  > “I too feel terrible for people being hurt by these comparatively wealthy politicians playing games with their livelihood.” It’s important to be clear that in this specific case it is literally just one singular wealthy politician inflicting this suffering.
• ConceptJunkie 8y ago
  I'm not trying to blame government workers and I'm definitely not defending the stalemate over the shutdown, but this kind of thing happens all the time in the private world, and people are just expected to deal with it. Businesses go under all the time and people are laid off. It's unfortunate, but as someone who works for private companies and not the government, I've been unexpectedly laid off before, and understand that this could happen at any time (and no, I'm not really prepared for it either). So, I feel sorry for the workers as well, but this is one of the risks you have to take to have a government job over a private one, and certainly not the only one.
• seem_2211 8y ago
  Completely agree with you. Yes you should have savings for six months or whatever that may be, but just because you should, doesn't make it right for you to engineer a situation where you put everyone who didn't into an extremely difficult situation.
• closeparen 8y ago
  That people drawing their livelihoods from the public sector should be allowed to continue doing so is itself a controversial political position. The size of government is a campaign issue and a key difference between the parties every election cycle.
• clairity 8y ago
  besides a lack fo compassion, there is also a systemic effect at play: large numbers of people are being put under (financial) stress at the same time. empathy goes down under stressful situations, so it's eaiser for peers to lack empathy for competitive reasons (claiming a leg up from others' misfortunes). this is the whole "poor whites are the most racist against poor blacks" phenomenon (an induced systemic effect rather than some innate feature of poor white people). this is not to excuse the lack of empathy--as humans, we should strive to feel for and help our neightbors--but not everyone immediately realizes what's going on, which hampers the ability to recognize the multifaceted situation and appropriately guide themselves through it (having empathy for those who seem to lack it can be wholly beneficial too). politicians--people who wield power--should be held to a higher standard however. criticism must shape power lest our freedoms be eroded.