6 ms·

Was the fall of Rome this embarrassing as well?

eeZah7Ux 8y ago
Society slowly turned into an oligarchy where a handful of families owned the majority of wealth. And the same time depletion of natural resources, mostly forests, lead to systemic scarcity of fuel (wood). Increased social complexity due to the size of the empire. On top of that, ongoing wars with barbarian and Ira... I mean Persian forces. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography_of_the_fall_of_the_Western_Roman_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography_of_the_fall_of_...
arethuza 8y ago
Awfully nice of our US friends to try and make and feel better about our current bit of unpleasantness with our government here in the UK, but you really didn't need to bother....
- Brakenshire 8y ago
  Could a situation like this happen in the UK, do you think? Not voting through a budget would normally be a confidence issue, which would bring about the fall of the government, could we have a situation where that went on for a period of time without causing a new election?
  - pjc50 8y ago
    Arguably since the Lib Dems detached confidence votes from normal business the constitution has been broken; previously the "May Deal" would have been a confidence vote and its failure would have collapsed the government. While I don't think we'll have budget issues we're very likely to go the other way: use of emergency powers to suspend Parliamentary democracy. I believe some of the Tory party are already calling for this.
  - te_chris 8y ago
    We barely have a government now but things seem to carry on - ish.
  - arethuza 8y ago
    I think it used to be that a government losing a vote on a budget would mean a general election but since the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 I believe there has to be an explicit vote of no confidence in the government (or a two thirds vote by MPs) to trigger an election. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_201... Of course, somewhat inevitably, since that Act was introduced I don't think any government has actually had a full fixed term...
  - bencollier49 8y ago
    No, and it wouldn't affect salaries in the mean-time.
fyjvd90 8y ago
It’s also interesting how a democratic Rome voted for becoming an oligarchy.
- opencl 8y ago
  It was "democratic" but the vast majority of people were not allowed to vote.
- AndyMcConachie 8y ago
  They didn't vote for oligarchy. They stabbed Caesar in the Senate.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Brakenshire 8y ago
    They in effect voted for a dictatorship, initially for Pompey on the ground of a terrorism threat, and then later were supportive of Caesar. Pompey used the democratic tribune system which had been abolished by a previous generation of the aristocracy. The dictator argued past the traditions of the Roman Republic as exemplified by the aristocrats, and appealed directly to the people.
    - eeZah7Ux 8y ago
      They voted when society was already a de-facto oligarchy.
      - Brakenshire 8y ago
        Yes, I think so, they in effect chose between an oligarchy and a dictatorship.
dmarlow 8y ago
No country is without it's issues. Not excusing what's going on though. With that out of the way, what substantive arguments can you make that leads you to think this is anything like the fall of Rome?
- scarmig 8y ago
  It's not my favorite analogy. Probably something closer to the government of early modern Poland: so paralyzed by dysfunction that it couldn't effectively govern or respond to novel threats.
  - mncharity 8y ago
    I've wondered if public dialog about societal change might be improved by having a richer set of exemplars, to serve as context and landmarks in discussion. When exploring design objectives with a client, one often provides a set of proposals, whose differences then serve as a vocabulary for discussion. Almost a basis vector set. Public dialog often leaves me with the impression of a client with an inadequate set, an impoverished vocabulary, struggling to both clearly understand and express their opportunities and desires. For governance and society, even just current US States are variously diverse. So we might discuss whether we want aspect X of the federal government or national society, to look more like those of this state or that state, with a bit from some other. Current countries and societies provide even larger breath, and history even more. But the goal here isn't models, merely vocabulary. Not "if we do this, then these experiences suggest these results". Such extrapolations between highly complex systems are almost silly. Though experiences can suggest possibilities. But my focus here is more on creating vocabulary. For example, I recall a story of "you don't call the police in <city in Brazil>, because they will just show up in force, smash things and people unrelated to the problem, and then leave, having done nothing but additional harm". For vocabulary, it doesn't matter whether that's true, or typical, or happens only under specific conditions, or is different now, or whatever. It's merely a tag, to facilitate discussion and reflection like "Hmm, it seems there are a few situations of that in the US too! What is the shape of such cases? Does it vary among municipalities? Why? What does the space of shapes look like? What are the class, cultural, political, and professional contexts?", etc.
AnabeeKnox 8y ago
I visit Hacker News to avoid dross comments such as these.

Society slowly turned into an oligarchy where a handful of families owned the majority of wealth. And the same time depletion of natural resources, mostly forests, lead to systemic scarcity of fuel (wood). Increased social complexity due to the size of the empire. On top of that, ongoing wars with barbarian and Ira... I mean Persian forces. Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography_of_the_fall_of_the_Western_Roman_Empire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography_of_the_fall_of_...

arethuza 8y ago

Awfully nice of our US friends to try and make and feel better about our current bit of unpleasantness with our government here in the UK, but you really didn't need to bother....

Brakenshire 8y ago
Could a situation like this happen in the UK, do you think? Not voting through a budget would normally be a confidence issue, which would bring about the fall of the government, could we have a situation where that went on for a period of time without causing a new election?
- pjc50 8y ago
  Arguably since the Lib Dems detached confidence votes from normal business the constitution has been broken; previously the "May Deal" would have been a confidence vote and its failure would have collapsed the government. While I don't think we'll have budget issues we're very likely to go the other way: use of emergency powers to suspend Parliamentary democracy. I believe some of the Tory party are already calling for this.
- te_chris 8y ago
  We barely have a government now but things seem to carry on - ish.
- arethuza 8y ago
  I think it used to be that a government losing a vote on a budget would mean a general election but since the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011 I believe there has to be an explicit vote of no confidence in the government (or a two thirds vote by MPs) to trigger an election. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_2011 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed-term_Parliaments_Act_201... Of course, somewhat inevitably, since that Act was introduced I don't think any government has actually had a full fixed term...
- bencollier49 8y ago
  No, and it wouldn't affect salaries in the mean-time.

fyjvd90 8y ago

It’s also interesting how a democratic Rome voted for becoming an oligarchy.

opencl 8y ago
It was "democratic" but the vast majority of people were not allowed to vote.
AndyMcConachie 8y ago
They didn't vote for oligarchy. They stabbed Caesar in the Senate.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Brakenshire 8y ago
  They in effect voted for a dictatorship, initially for Pompey on the ground of a terrorism threat, and then later were supportive of Caesar. Pompey used the democratic tribune system which had been abolished by a previous generation of the aristocracy. The dictator argued past the traditions of the Roman Republic as exemplified by the aristocrats, and appealed directly to the people.
  - eeZah7Ux 8y ago
    They voted when society was already a de-facto oligarchy.
    - Brakenshire 8y ago
      Yes, I think so, they in effect chose between an oligarchy and a dictatorship.

dmarlow 8y ago

No country is without it's issues. Not excusing what's going on though. With that out of the way, what substantive arguments can you make that leads you to think this is anything like the fall of Rome?

scarmig 8y ago
It's not my favorite analogy. Probably something closer to the government of early modern Poland: so paralyzed by dysfunction that it couldn't effectively govern or respond to novel threats.
- mncharity 8y ago
  I've wondered if public dialog about societal change might be improved by having a richer set of exemplars, to serve as context and landmarks in discussion. When exploring design objectives with a client, one often provides a set of proposals, whose differences then serve as a vocabulary for discussion. Almost a basis vector set. Public dialog often leaves me with the impression of a client with an inadequate set, an impoverished vocabulary, struggling to both clearly understand and express their opportunities and desires. For governance and society, even just current US States are variously diverse. So we might discuss whether we want aspect X of the federal government or national society, to look more like those of this state or that state, with a bit from some other. Current countries and societies provide even larger breath, and history even more. But the goal here isn't models, merely vocabulary. Not "if we do this, then these experiences suggest these results". Such extrapolations between highly complex systems are almost silly. Though experiences can suggest possibilities. But my focus here is more on creating vocabulary. For example, I recall a story of "you don't call the police in <city in Brazil>, because they will just show up in force, smash things and people unrelated to the problem, and then leave, having done nothing but additional harm". For vocabulary, it doesn't matter whether that's true, or typical, or happens only under specific conditions, or is different now, or whatever. It's merely a tag, to facilitate discussion and reflection like "Hmm, it seems there are a few situations of that in the US too! What is the shape of such cases? Does it vary among municipalities? Why? What does the space of shapes look like? What are the class, cultural, political, and professional contexts?", etc.

AnabeeKnox 8y ago

I visit Hacker News to avoid dross comments such as these.