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Toyota have traditionally built their reputation of quality by conservativly adopting new technology, especially when it comes to drivetrains. I'm not aware of

Toyota have traditionally built their reputation of quality by conservativly adopting new technology, especially when it comes to drivetrains. I'm not aware of any Toyota vehicles sold in the U.K that have a turbocharger, except the Supra which shares the drivetrain, suspension, platform and some interior with the BMW Z4. Heck, their Yaris GRMN uses the 1.8 supercharged engine that Toyota have been selling to Lotus for years. I wonder how Toyota plan to transfer this to electric vehicles given how new the technology still is.

cptskippy 8y ago
EVs are dramatically simplified in comparison to ICE vehicles and thus the power-train is much more reliable. For any automaker this increased reliability is only going to help their reputation. This poses a problem for Toyota and others (e.g. Honda) who are known for having very reliable power-trains, not because their reliability will suffer but rather because other automaker's power-trains will get significantly better. That is assuming those other automakers don't find a way to screw up, I have no doubt some will.
- throw0u1t 8y ago
  I'm concerned like this a quite a blanket statement. Are all EVs that much simpler? There are simple EV drivetrains and there are complex EV drivetrains. Not all EV drivetrains are the same. This also applies to ICE. Most ICE drivetrains that do not have forced induction tend to be quite simple. Forced induction makes the drivetrain much more complex and puts a lot more strain on the drivetrain, and is one of the reasons why Toyota has stayed away from forced induction. Is the drive train in a Tesla Model X P100d much simpler than that in a 1.5 NA Yaris? I'm not sure, and would love to be proved incorrect on this.
  - loeg 8y ago
    Where are the complex EV drivetrains? It isn't remotely the same thing as ICE. Even the most reliable ICE drivetrains are extremely complex. Toyota just uses conservative and overbuilt ICE technology to achieve remarkable reliability. That's fine, but still has tons of moving parts compared to electric drivetrains.
  - cptskippy 8y ago
    > Are all EVs that much simpler? Yes. Internal Combustion Engines have at a minimum a Combustion System, Ignition System, Fuel Delivery System, Exhaust System, and a Cooling System. These can vary in complexity but, apart from air cooling, any one of those systems will be more complex than an EV's electric power-train. On top of that, most of the parts of an ICE are mechanical moving parts where as most of the parts of an electric motor are stationary non-moving parts. ICE vehicles almost universally have a transmission gear box that contains a configurable gear system to alter the gear ratio of the vehicle. All EVs on the market use a fixed gear box with a single reduction gear set. > Is the drive train in a Tesla Model X P100d much simpler than that in a 1.5 NA Yaris? Yes, dramatically.
sremani 8y ago
I am bit thinking out loud, drive train becomes important if its a plug-in hybrid when you have to change from electric to gas (and vice-versa), but in electric it is meant to be simple, is drive train even an issue of innovation in Electric cars, after all there is only Drive and Reverse.
- throw0u1t 8y ago
  I would presume electric drive trains are quite complex. You'd have independent electric motors on at least 2, perhaps all 4 wheels. You have to redesign entire platforms to fit batteries, ensure the batteries and the drivetrain have adequate cooling, ensure that the electric motors have a certain amount of longevity, and so on.
  - andrewmunsell 8y ago
    With the exception of a few niche vehicles, most EVs have only 1 (FWD/RWD) or 2 (AWD) motors. Though it's a new platform, electric motors aren't exactly a new technology and overall it's significantly fewer moving parts to fail. There's also the fact that many manufacturers come up with a single "skateboard" platform for multiple vehicles, which reduces the overall complexity of manufacturing EVs.
    - throw0u1t 8y ago
      As far as I understand the current state of EVs, EVs have eliminated the engine and it's ancillaries. However, EVs still have CV joints, differentials (dependent on the car, Tesla runs an open differential), independent suspension - all of which must be much stronger since electric motors produce far more torque than ICEs and also have the added weight penalty.
      - 51lver 8y ago
        That's all very old and simple tech. The quality is only limited by the bean counters keeping costs down.
loeg 8y ago
Electric drivetrains are just so simple compared to ICE that it seems hard to fuck up. I mean, I'm sure Toyota will think about it more than I have, but that's one of the major benefits of this shift towards battery vehicles.
- magduf 8y ago
  >Electric drivetrains are just so simple compared to ICE that it seems hard to fuck up. You would think so, but Tesla had a lot of problems with their electric motors and had to replace lots of them.
  - loeg 8y ago
    Tesla is in an interesting position where they have a lot of apologists for various kinds of problems that no other automaker gets. I don't think their experience is necessarily indicative of how an entranched, reliable automaker's EV experience will shake out.
    - magduf 8y ago
      Perhaps, but it's not like there's a lot of other examples of battery EVs out there to compare with, just the Leaf and the Bolt really. There's also the motors in the Volt and Prius (which are both capable of running motor-only, and for the Volt the motor provides all the propulsion). But you have a point, none of those others have had any motor problems I've heard of. Thought to be fair, the Tesla motors are a lot more powerful than those in any of those other cars.
ed_balls 8y ago
Prius drivetrain is quite complicated. > that have a turbocharger, It's not only Toyota. I think this is an instance of you get what you measure. European car automakers jump into turbocharged engines, because it was easy to meet NDEC. Now WLTP makes it a way harder, hence mild hybridization.

cptskippy 8y ago

EVs are dramatically simplified in comparison to ICE vehicles and thus the power-train is much more reliable. For any automaker this increased reliability is only going to help their reputation. This poses a problem for Toyota and others (e.g. Honda) who are known for having very reliable power-trains, not because their reliability will suffer but rather because other automaker's power-trains will get significantly better. That is assuming those other automakers don't find a way to screw up, I have no doubt some will.

throw0u1t 8y ago
I'm concerned like this a quite a blanket statement. Are all EVs that much simpler? There are simple EV drivetrains and there are complex EV drivetrains. Not all EV drivetrains are the same. This also applies to ICE. Most ICE drivetrains that do not have forced induction tend to be quite simple. Forced induction makes the drivetrain much more complex and puts a lot more strain on the drivetrain, and is one of the reasons why Toyota has stayed away from forced induction. Is the drive train in a Tesla Model X P100d much simpler than that in a 1.5 NA Yaris? I'm not sure, and would love to be proved incorrect on this.
- loeg 8y ago
  Where are the complex EV drivetrains? It isn't remotely the same thing as ICE. Even the most reliable ICE drivetrains are extremely complex. Toyota just uses conservative and overbuilt ICE technology to achieve remarkable reliability. That's fine, but still has tons of moving parts compared to electric drivetrains.
- cptskippy 8y ago
  > Are all EVs that much simpler? Yes. Internal Combustion Engines have at a minimum a Combustion System, Ignition System, Fuel Delivery System, Exhaust System, and a Cooling System. These can vary in complexity but, apart from air cooling, any one of those systems will be more complex than an EV's electric power-train. On top of that, most of the parts of an ICE are mechanical moving parts where as most of the parts of an electric motor are stationary non-moving parts. ICE vehicles almost universally have a transmission gear box that contains a configurable gear system to alter the gear ratio of the vehicle. All EVs on the market use a fixed gear box with a single reduction gear set. > Is the drive train in a Tesla Model X P100d much simpler than that in a 1.5 NA Yaris? Yes, dramatically.

sremani 8y ago

I am bit thinking out loud, drive train becomes important if its a plug-in hybrid when you have to change from electric to gas (and vice-versa), but in electric it is meant to be simple, is drive train even an issue of innovation in Electric cars, after all there is only Drive and Reverse.

throw0u1t 8y ago
I would presume electric drive trains are quite complex. You'd have independent electric motors on at least 2, perhaps all 4 wheels. You have to redesign entire platforms to fit batteries, ensure the batteries and the drivetrain have adequate cooling, ensure that the electric motors have a certain amount of longevity, and so on.
- andrewmunsell 8y ago
  With the exception of a few niche vehicles, most EVs have only 1 (FWD/RWD) or 2 (AWD) motors. Though it's a new platform, electric motors aren't exactly a new technology and overall it's significantly fewer moving parts to fail. There's also the fact that many manufacturers come up with a single "skateboard" platform for multiple vehicles, which reduces the overall complexity of manufacturing EVs.
  - throw0u1t 8y ago
    As far as I understand the current state of EVs, EVs have eliminated the engine and it's ancillaries. However, EVs still have CV joints, differentials (dependent on the car, Tesla runs an open differential), independent suspension - all of which must be much stronger since electric motors produce far more torque than ICEs and also have the added weight penalty.
    - 51lver 8y ago
      That's all very old and simple tech. The quality is only limited by the bean counters keeping costs down.

loeg 8y ago

Electric drivetrains are just so simple compared to ICE that it seems hard to fuck up. I mean, I'm sure Toyota will think about it more than I have, but that's one of the major benefits of this shift towards battery vehicles.

magduf 8y ago
>Electric drivetrains are just so simple compared to ICE that it seems hard to fuck up. You would think so, but Tesla had a lot of problems with their electric motors and had to replace lots of them.
- loeg 8y ago
  Tesla is in an interesting position where they have a lot of apologists for various kinds of problems that no other automaker gets. I don't think their experience is necessarily indicative of how an entranched, reliable automaker's EV experience will shake out.
  - magduf 8y ago
    Perhaps, but it's not like there's a lot of other examples of battery EVs out there to compare with, just the Leaf and the Bolt really. There's also the motors in the Volt and Prius (which are both capable of running motor-only, and for the Volt the motor provides all the propulsion). But you have a point, none of those others have had any motor problems I've heard of. Thought to be fair, the Tesla motors are a lot more powerful than those in any of those other cars.

ed_balls 8y ago

Prius drivetrain is quite complicated. > that have a turbocharger, It's not only Toyota. I think this is an instance of you get what you measure. European car automakers jump into turbocharged engines, because it was easy to meet NDEC. Now WLTP makes it a way harder, hence mild hybridization.