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These moral/technical equivalency memes I don't think hold water. Nobody in the US is going to censor your email so that if you say something about Trump it ge

These moral/technical equivalency memes I don't think hold water. Nobody in the US is going to censor your email so that if you say something about Trump it gets magically deleted. Court cases and mugshots are public information and a matter of transparency. When you murder someone, well, that's part of the deal. That's very different from the government measuring other, minute aspects of your life and making it public to everyone. If your social media posts are marked private - which is your choice - then for the most part they're not going to be available to arbitrary 3rd parties, moreover, there are definitely social media solutions you can use that don't share anything. There is an ongoing war over your information mostly for advertising by the way (not hiring) and hopefully some legislation will take care of that, and some dialogue over NSA/Snowden type things. Thankfully, there are actually laws, warrants, judges in the mix. Surely we have to judge China's actions from a completely different angle, as they have their own history, social system etc. - but the equivalency arguments just don't work. I think if you tried to text someone a message about Obama, and it was magically deleted by the US government, it would send shivers down your spine, and however political or not you were, you'd be signed up for the first protest/action - as would most of us. We all have some concerns about our system but it's manageable - what's happening in China is right out of a novel. Also note that 'it's just begun'. This is possibly only the first tranche. The de-facto objective may be to leverage tech to it's max - the result is effective total control over everyone's lives.

fixermark 8y ago
Oh yes, they're very different. It's just not necessarily the case that one is to be preferred over the other. I don't expect in a US structure my Obama texts would be hidden or deleted. I think they'd be put on blast by multiple competing systems that are semi-automated to seek out and publicize "undesirable" behavior, and I'd end up receiving death threats from anonymous sources, sanctions from my employer, etc. The outcomes are different, and I think the jury's out on which one is better. In fact, it's probably a personal preference.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  "I think they'd be put on blast by multiple competing systems that are semi-automated to seek out and publicize "undesirable" behavior, and I'd end up receiving death threats from anonymous sources, sanctions from my employer, etc." I disagree. I don't see any future where your gmails or SMSs are going to be sold to arbitrary 3rd parties so your 'future employers' can read them.
  - avmich 8y ago
    > I don't see any future where your gmails or SMSs are going to be sold to arbitrary 3rd parties so your 'future employers' can read them. Doesn't Google read gmails? Doesn't Google have agreements with 3rd parties related to using information from those gmails? Is it hard to imagine that, as with Facebook, Google making that information directly available?
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      Yes, it is hard to imagine, because it would be a direct violation of their privacy policy and they would be sued into oblivion. What FB et. al. do with your content is right in the fine print.
  - mAEStro-paNDa 8y ago
    It's different yes, but let's not pretend like this is a conversation around an "open-society" vs a "closed" one. They are not the same, but there is overlap. For example, the employment of academics in the US being in jeopardy if they choose to criticize Israel.
    - sonnyblarney 8y ago
      They are completely different. "the employment of academics in the US being in jeopardy if they choose to criticize Israel." This has nothing to do with state powers monitoring arbitrary communications. This has to do with specific enterprises practices of hiring discrimination - which is a complex, but totally separate problem.
hedora 8y ago
> Nobody in the US is going to censor your email so that if you say something about Trump it gets magically deleted. FaceBook does this sort of thing, except instead of deleting the post, they omit it from feeds, and immediately bury it in the historical archive part of the UI. Example: A friend of mine’s brother died, and his only updates were about a scone or something. After hearing about the death through other channels, I had to click around for about five minutes (I don’t use Facebook much...) to find the touching post he wrote, and link to the / funeral arrangements.
- cheez 8y ago
  OK so lets assume people ARE going to do this. Would you want those people to also have unilateral rights to use violence?
lustysocietyorg 8y ago
In our western democracies, especially the USA, not only messages are deleted but persons are. Either by lies or by harassment or by prison or by murder or by wars against entire countries and their population. Notable examples: - Julian Assange. - Russia, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Venezuela, ... America Has Been at War 93% of the Time – 222 out of 239 Years – Since 1776 https://www.globalresearch.ca/america-has-been-at-war-93-of-the-time-222-out-of-239-years-since-1776/5565946 https://www.globalresearch.ca/america-has-been-at-war-93-of-... When was the last war promoted by Russia or China where hundreds of thousands of people died ? Madeleine Albright says 500,000 dead Iraqi Children was "worth it" wins Medal of Freedom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE And do not forget corruption of information by corporations and secrets services like the FBI and CIA. Whistleblower Exposes Facebook Censorship Techniques - Mindblowing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UzFTAeEzJ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UzFTAeEzJ8 SHOCKER: FBI Admits Sabotaging Progressive Politicians As Policy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LYJSb-h9m8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LYJSb-h9m8 Macron vows to tighten media control because 'fake news threatens democracy' https://www.rt.com/news/414945-macron-france-fake-news-law/ https://www.rt.com/news/414945-macron-france-fake-news-law/ Food libel laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_libel_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_libel_laws
- joyeuse6701 8y ago
  whataboutism at it's best...Russia is a sponsor in the Syrian war. Besides, neither China nor Russia need the excuse of war to harm or murder, it's called 'reeducation'.
  - lustysocietyorg 8y ago
    > Whataboutism Typically used by people who have nothing else to say. I did not write anything to excuse China. I wrote something that accuses the USA and our western democracies of being far worse than China for the world. Something very relevant regarding the fear mongering against Russia and China promoted by the message in the linked article that also promotes the worldview that the USA and the western democracies are beacons of goodness that must act against Russia and China. Besides, Russia was invited by the official and elected Syrian president. The USA invaded Syria and promoted terrorism. You should read about what Syrian people think about Russia and the USA in their country. Example: 'Thank you, Russia, Thank you, Putin' - BBC News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNTgL82D4Xo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNTgL82D4Xo
randomsearch 8y ago
An aside, but often those equivalencies can be exposed by asking which country you’d rather live in. Can be applied to people who romanticise about “simpler lives” in developing countries as much as those denigrating the west and praising authoritarian regimes. No one sufficiently educated wants to think the west is somehow superior, but at least when it comes to choosing where you’d prefer to be born, western countries offer huge advantages.

fixermark 8y ago

Oh yes, they're very different. It's just not necessarily the case that one is to be preferred over the other. I don't expect in a US structure my Obama texts would be hidden or deleted. I think they'd be put on blast by multiple competing systems that are semi-automated to seek out and publicize "undesirable" behavior, and I'd end up receiving death threats from anonymous sources, sanctions from my employer, etc. The outcomes are different, and I think the jury's out on which one is better. In fact, it's probably a personal preference.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
"I think they'd be put on blast by multiple competing systems that are semi-automated to seek out and publicize "undesirable" behavior, and I'd end up receiving death threats from anonymous sources, sanctions from my employer, etc." I disagree. I don't see any future where your gmails or SMSs are going to be sold to arbitrary 3rd parties so your 'future employers' can read them.
- avmich 8y ago
  > I don't see any future where your gmails or SMSs are going to be sold to arbitrary 3rd parties so your 'future employers' can read them. Doesn't Google read gmails? Doesn't Google have agreements with 3rd parties related to using information from those gmails? Is it hard to imagine that, as with Facebook, Google making that information directly available?
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    Yes, it is hard to imagine, because it would be a direct violation of their privacy policy and they would be sued into oblivion. What FB et. al. do with your content is right in the fine print.
- mAEStro-paNDa 8y ago
  It's different yes, but let's not pretend like this is a conversation around an "open-society" vs a "closed" one. They are not the same, but there is overlap. For example, the employment of academics in the US being in jeopardy if they choose to criticize Israel.
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    They are completely different. "the employment of academics in the US being in jeopardy if they choose to criticize Israel." This has nothing to do with state powers monitoring arbitrary communications. This has to do with specific enterprises practices of hiring discrimination - which is a complex, but totally separate problem.

hedora 8y ago

> Nobody in the US is going to censor your email so that if you say something about Trump it gets magically deleted. FaceBook does this sort of thing, except instead of deleting the post, they omit it from feeds, and immediately bury it in the historical archive part of the UI. Example: A friend of mine’s brother died, and his only updates were about a scone or something. After hearing about the death through other channels, I had to click around for about five minutes (I don’t use Facebook much...) to find the touching post he wrote, and link to the / funeral arrangements.

cheez 8y ago
OK so lets assume people ARE going to do this. Would you want those people to also have unilateral rights to use violence?

lustysocietyorg 8y ago

In our western democracies, especially the USA, not only messages are deleted but persons are. Either by lies or by harassment or by prison or by murder or by wars against entire countries and their population. Notable examples: - Julian Assange. - Russia, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Venezuela, ... America Has Been at War 93% of the Time – 222 out of 239 Years – Since 1776 https://www.globalresearch.ca/america-has-been-at-war-93-of-the-time-222-out-of-239-years-since-1776/5565946 https://www.globalresearch.ca/america-has-been-at-war-93-of-... When was the last war promoted by Russia or China where hundreds of thousands of people died ? Madeleine Albright says 500,000 dead Iraqi Children was "worth it" wins Medal of Freedom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omnskeu-puE And do not forget corruption of information by corporations and secrets services like the FBI and CIA. Whistleblower Exposes Facebook Censorship Techniques - Mindblowing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UzFTAeEzJ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UzFTAeEzJ8 SHOCKER: FBI Admits Sabotaging Progressive Politicians As Policy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LYJSb-h9m8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LYJSb-h9m8 Macron vows to tighten media control because 'fake news threatens democracy' https://www.rt.com/news/414945-macron-france-fake-news-law/ https://www.rt.com/news/414945-macron-france-fake-news-law/ Food libel laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_libel_laws https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_libel_laws

joyeuse6701 8y ago
whataboutism at it's best...Russia is a sponsor in the Syrian war. Besides, neither China nor Russia need the excuse of war to harm or murder, it's called 'reeducation'.
- lustysocietyorg 8y ago
  > Whataboutism Typically used by people who have nothing else to say. I did not write anything to excuse China. I wrote something that accuses the USA and our western democracies of being far worse than China for the world. Something very relevant regarding the fear mongering against Russia and China promoted by the message in the linked article that also promotes the worldview that the USA and the western democracies are beacons of goodness that must act against Russia and China. Besides, Russia was invited by the official and elected Syrian president. The USA invaded Syria and promoted terrorism. You should read about what Syrian people think about Russia and the USA in their country. Example: 'Thank you, Russia, Thank you, Putin' - BBC News https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNTgL82D4Xo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNTgL82D4Xo

randomsearch 8y ago

An aside, but often those equivalencies can be exposed by asking which country you’d rather live in. Can be applied to people who romanticise about “simpler lives” in developing countries as much as those denigrating the west and praising authoritarian regimes. No one sufficiently educated wants to think the west is somehow superior, but at least when it comes to choosing where you’d prefer to be born, western countries offer huge advantages.