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They really should have used BroodWar for deep mind. SCII is way too volatile. Way more gimmicks available that will make it difficult for AI to come close to a

by z_open 8y ago

They really should have used BroodWar for deep mind. SCII is way too volatile. Way more gimmicks available that will make it difficult for AI to come close to a human player.

TotempaaltJ 8y ago
Why? They won ten out of eleven matches. Seems like they got pretty close to human players...
- yifanl 8y ago
  The games it won, it had an access to inputs human players physically can't do (controlling units off-screen without panning the camera first), so I'm hesitant to call the victories legitimate. Edit: And reviewing the game it lost, the decision making was questionable at best.
briga 8y ago
Isn't the difficulty of the task the point? If it was easy it wouldn't be interesting.
- z_open 8y ago
  What's going to be uninteresting is when their AI can never get past bronze league because the AI can't figure out that his bunker is going to get force-fielded or that observer is going to be used for a blink all-in.
  - sgarman 8y ago
    You should watch these replays, the AI is already way more advanced then the situation you just described.
kirrent 8y ago
As much as I love brood war, great micro over a large number of units with wide awareness (things which appear to be easy to AlphaStar) would be ridiculously overpowered, even with completely average strategy. Brood War is an awesome game because it's constantly asking too much of its players at all times. I can't imagine games against an AI which has far more attention and micro to give would be too interesting.
- z_open 8y ago
  They are planning on limiting the APM of the AI anyway. With BW, you can focus on an AI learning basic strategy with incomplete information. With SC2, you mix in a hole assortment of figuring out how crazy abilities like force fields and recall. It's going to take much longer for an AI to anticipate when its opponent is going to force field the ramp and warp into the main.
  - kirrent 8y ago
    I'm not really sure why you think Brood War is such a pure example of basic strategy without difficult to comprehend mechanics. Even in your example, recall is far crazier in Brood War. Arbiters can also create a version of a force field on a ramp that's uncounterable and lasts far longer. They're also harder to defend against because they have so much HP.
    - z_open 8y ago
      The fact that arbiters are stronger or weaker than the equivalent abilities in SCII isn't the issue. The issue is getting the AI tech to the point where it can figure out that you have to sac a base because it will waste time sending your army there only to have them recall is going to take a lot longer. An AI can figure out that there is an arbiter on the map, and that means there is a potential for it to recall some units into your base. That's easy. BW isn't the perfect example or pure strategy, but there are dramatically less game-changing abilities in it. Think cyclone/marauder cheeses or 2 base warp gate allins or ravagers seiging your wall. SCII in general makes attacks come quicker relative to scouting. Injects, chrono, and mules make tech and attacks come sooner compared to BW. Reliable scouting is still basically tier 2.
WhompingWindows 8y ago
I had a feeling we'd see Brood War elitism in here. There are many, many gimmicks in BW. Every time I watch ASL and KSL, I see numerous quick stomps based on gimmicky builds, just like in SC2, Dota, and every other strategy game with fog of war and a collision of messy strategies.
- z_open 8y ago
  Cheese isn't the same as gimmicks. I'm talking about abilities that change the game. There are more in sc2.
FlorianRappl 8y ago
Thought the same - especially since afaik no AI has yet beaten a Korean pro. A few months (maybe 1 year ago) the best AIs tried vs some "retired" pro-gamers (like Stork) - it was not even close. Would have loved to see DeepMind trying to show what's possible here.

by z_open 8y ago

They really should have used BroodWar for deep mind. SCII is way too volatile. Way more gimmicks available that will make it difficult for AI to come close to a human player.

TotempaaltJ 8y ago

Why? They won ten out of eleven matches. Seems like they got pretty close to human players...

yifanl 8y ago
The games it won, it had an access to inputs human players physically can't do (controlling units off-screen without panning the camera first), so I'm hesitant to call the victories legitimate. Edit: And reviewing the game it lost, the decision making was questionable at best.

briga 8y ago

Isn't the difficulty of the task the point? If it was easy it wouldn't be interesting.

z_open 8y ago
What's going to be uninteresting is when their AI can never get past bronze league because the AI can't figure out that his bunker is going to get force-fielded or that observer is going to be used for a blink all-in.
- sgarman 8y ago
  You should watch these replays, the AI is already way more advanced then the situation you just described.

kirrent 8y ago

As much as I love brood war, great micro over a large number of units with wide awareness (things which appear to be easy to AlphaStar) would be ridiculously overpowered, even with completely average strategy. Brood War is an awesome game because it's constantly asking too much of its players at all times. I can't imagine games against an AI which has far more attention and micro to give would be too interesting.

z_open 8y ago
They are planning on limiting the APM of the AI anyway. With BW, you can focus on an AI learning basic strategy with incomplete information. With SC2, you mix in a hole assortment of figuring out how crazy abilities like force fields and recall. It's going to take much longer for an AI to anticipate when its opponent is going to force field the ramp and warp into the main.
- kirrent 8y ago
  I'm not really sure why you think Brood War is such a pure example of basic strategy without difficult to comprehend mechanics. Even in your example, recall is far crazier in Brood War. Arbiters can also create a version of a force field on a ramp that's uncounterable and lasts far longer. They're also harder to defend against because they have so much HP.
  - z_open 8y ago
    The fact that arbiters are stronger or weaker than the equivalent abilities in SCII isn't the issue. The issue is getting the AI tech to the point where it can figure out that you have to sac a base because it will waste time sending your army there only to have them recall is going to take a lot longer. An AI can figure out that there is an arbiter on the map, and that means there is a potential for it to recall some units into your base. That's easy. BW isn't the perfect example or pure strategy, but there are dramatically less game-changing abilities in it. Think cyclone/marauder cheeses or 2 base warp gate allins or ravagers seiging your wall. SCII in general makes attacks come quicker relative to scouting. Injects, chrono, and mules make tech and attacks come sooner compared to BW. Reliable scouting is still basically tier 2.

WhompingWindows 8y ago

I had a feeling we'd see Brood War elitism in here. There are many, many gimmicks in BW. Every time I watch ASL and KSL, I see numerous quick stomps based on gimmicky builds, just like in SC2, Dota, and every other strategy game with fog of war and a collision of messy strategies.

z_open 8y ago
Cheese isn't the same as gimmicks. I'm talking about abilities that change the game. There are more in sc2.

FlorianRappl 8y ago

Thought the same - especially since afaik no AI has yet beaten a Korean pro. A few months (maybe 1 year ago) the best AIs tried vs some "retired" pro-gamers (like Stork) - it was not even close. Would have loved to see DeepMind trying to show what's possible here.