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What's interesting about Google is, they can have open source products that are hated a big % of devs (Angular) and something that doesn't have that problem (Te

What's interesting about Google is, they can have open source products that are hated a big % of devs (Angular) and something that doesn't have that problem (Tensorflow). I wonder what's the underlying issue behind this disparity. Wonder if it the teams themselves behind those products...

nabla9 8y ago
Maybe it's the software itself and nothing associated with it. When something is 'Google' it's not automatically good or bad.
- stochastic_monk 8y ago
  I see PyTorch and, to a much lesser extent, DyNet used in state-of-the-art NLP applications. I wonder if PyTorch is “winning”.
  - nabla9 8y ago
    PyTorch is gaining popularity but still behind Tensorflow in popularity, code, documentation and models available. The main difference is the eager execution that Tensorflow does not have until 2.0 that is out soon.
netdur 8y ago
Angular is hated? Angular is my only way out of Javascript fatigue, it just works.
- dylanz 8y ago
  It gets a lot of hate on HN when compared to React/Vue/etc, but I used it for years and it was a breathe of fresh air coming from raw JS. I think a lot of people on HN form opinions on software and its landscape without actually using it or interacting with its community (outside of HN).
  - Etheryte 8y ago
    According to on of the biggest frontend developer surveys, The State of JavaScript 2018 [1], Angular is the leading framework that people don't want to use again after having tried it. So it's not merely HN criticism, this is a very common theme and having used all popular big name fronted frameworks myself extensively, I can also see why many people feel that way. Not gonna steer the discussion there, though, just came here to point out that it's not a niche opinion. [1] https://2018.stateofjs.com/front-end-frameworks/overview/ https://2018.stateofjs.com/front-end-frameworks/overview/
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      That survey is biased, because it makes Angular == Angular 2+ == AngularJS. I used Angular 5 on two projects last year and was quite happy with the experience.
      - alasdair_ 8y ago
        It doesn’t conflate angular and angularjs at all - there is explicit mention of both of them and the differences.
        pjmlp 8y ago
        So where are the charts showing the difference between AngularJS and Angular adoption? https://2018.stateofjs.com/front-end-frameworks/angular/ https://2018.stateofjs.com/front-end-frameworks/angular/
      - Etheryte 8y ago
        While this is a very personal opinion, the main problems that I have with Angular are only increased with newer versions. I used to really like Angular 1.x, from there on, the required amount of scaffolding etc has only increased. I'm sure you can however find someone who feels just the opposite way. All in all I don't think this affects the results too much though. For example Vue is also in one big bucket with 1.x still being a thing. Angular isn't the only one who's had a fair share of changes over time.
- aboutruby 8y ago
  I think most people (including me) didn't like the 1.4 to 2.0 "transition" (e.g. not a single ounce of backward compatibility, basically Angular 1.4 was abandoned)
bobbby 8y ago
I'm no fan of Angular but that's a bit harsh. Surely it's just the difference between a product for mass consumption and a niche one.
withhighprod 8y ago
Uh TF is quite hated nowadays as people get access to better alternative frameworks
michaelbuckbee 8y ago
I think "hated" is a too strong a word here. They're releasing software that they use themselves and I think there are hits and misses in large part based upon how closely your own processes and what you're trying to accomplish match up with what Google is trying to do.
fizixer 8y ago
A lot responses challenging your Angular-is-hated claim, but I'd like to challenge your other one. Tensorflow is not necessarily the most loved framework, despite it being in python, and being around for years now. This is in stark contrast to the way TF was marketed and hyped up, as the f/w that's going to take over the world of DL. That clearly didn't happen. I think torch/pytorch is more popular (but don't quote me on that). And there are about half-a-dozen more competing with these two. Putting two and two together, Angular and TF likely have more similarities than differences when it comes to community response.
- hippich 8y ago
  what other viable projects besides tf/torch you would recommend to take a look at?
  - liuliu 8y ago
    I think there are dozens of inference frameworks. But full featured ones probably just TF / PyTorch / mxnet / Chainer that I am aware of (since caffe2 is merged into PyTorch).
piadodjanho 8y ago
In the academia people prefer PyTorch over TensorFlow.
typicalbender 8y ago
Old opinions strongly held. I think Angular 1 left a bad taste in peoples mouths and that gets carried over in perpetuity. Take php for example, I'm sure you can find plenty of devs who haven't touched php in 10+ years but will still say they despise it.
dekhn 8y ago
you might not be aware but there is a lot of unhappiness with TensorFlow in the community. For example, I hear many comments about how complex it is, how hard the basic API is to use, how many random parts it's acquired. Most of those people point at Torch, and in fact tensorflow is adopting some of Torch's approaches for this reason. It will be interesting to see if tensorflow retains a fairly high level of popularity over time. The 1->2 transition is a big risk for them because so many people are on TF 1, there's a ton of intrusive changes.
- rjdagost 8y ago
  For myself, I was surprised by how low-level Tensorflow was. I found that basic operations (things like saving and reloading a trained model) were much more difficult than in Keras, scikit-learn, or other machine learning libraries. Using Tensorflow feels sort of like computing derivatives with limits.
mattkrause 8y ago
There’s some frustration with tensorflow too. It often feels like there are a dozen different, somewhat incompatible ways to do 90% of something.
- FridgeSeal 8y ago
  And the documentation and examples seem to go out of their way to avoid mentioning when you should use any given approach; instead happily inexplicably using any one of them with wild abandon.

nabla9 8y ago

Maybe it's the software itself and nothing associated with it. When something is 'Google' it's not automatically good or bad.

stochastic_monk 8y ago
I see PyTorch and, to a much lesser extent, DyNet used in state-of-the-art NLP applications. I wonder if PyTorch is “winning”.
- nabla9 8y ago
  PyTorch is gaining popularity but still behind Tensorflow in popularity, code, documentation and models available. The main difference is the eager execution that Tensorflow does not have until 2.0 that is out soon.

netdur 8y ago

Angular is hated? Angular is my only way out of Javascript fatigue, it just works.

dylanz 8y ago
It gets a lot of hate on HN when compared to React/Vue/etc, but I used it for years and it was a breathe of fresh air coming from raw JS. I think a lot of people on HN form opinions on software and its landscape without actually using it or interacting with its community (outside of HN).
- Etheryte 8y ago
  According to on of the biggest frontend developer surveys, The State of JavaScript 2018 [1], Angular is the leading framework that people don't want to use again after having tried it. So it's not merely HN criticism, this is a very common theme and having used all popular big name fronted frameworks myself extensively, I can also see why many people feel that way. Not gonna steer the discussion there, though, just came here to point out that it's not a niche opinion. [1] https://2018.stateofjs.com/front-end-frameworks/overview/ https://2018.stateofjs.com/front-end-frameworks/overview/
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    That survey is biased, because it makes Angular == Angular 2+ == AngularJS. I used Angular 5 on two projects last year and was quite happy with the experience.
    - alasdair_ 8y ago
      It doesn’t conflate angular and angularjs at all - there is explicit mention of both of them and the differences.
      - pjmlp 8y ago
        So where are the charts showing the difference between AngularJS and Angular adoption? https://2018.stateofjs.com/front-end-frameworks/angular/ https://2018.stateofjs.com/front-end-frameworks/angular/
    - Etheryte 8y ago
      While this is a very personal opinion, the main problems that I have with Angular are only increased with newer versions. I used to really like Angular 1.x, from there on, the required amount of scaffolding etc has only increased. I'm sure you can however find someone who feels just the opposite way. All in all I don't think this affects the results too much though. For example Vue is also in one big bucket with 1.x still being a thing. Angular isn't the only one who's had a fair share of changes over time.
aboutruby 8y ago
I think most people (including me) didn't like the 1.4 to 2.0 "transition" (e.g. not a single ounce of backward compatibility, basically Angular 1.4 was abandoned)

bobbby 8y ago

I'm no fan of Angular but that's a bit harsh. Surely it's just the difference between a product for mass consumption and a niche one.

withhighprod 8y ago

Uh TF is quite hated nowadays as people get access to better alternative frameworks

michaelbuckbee 8y ago

I think "hated" is a too strong a word here. They're releasing software that they use themselves and I think there are hits and misses in large part based upon how closely your own processes and what you're trying to accomplish match up with what Google is trying to do.

fizixer 8y ago

A lot responses challenging your Angular-is-hated claim, but I'd like to challenge your other one. Tensorflow is not necessarily the most loved framework, despite it being in python, and being around for years now. This is in stark contrast to the way TF was marketed and hyped up, as the f/w that's going to take over the world of DL. That clearly didn't happen. I think torch/pytorch is more popular (but don't quote me on that). And there are about half-a-dozen more competing with these two. Putting two and two together, Angular and TF likely have more similarities than differences when it comes to community response.

hippich 8y ago
what other viable projects besides tf/torch you would recommend to take a look at?
- liuliu 8y ago
  I think there are dozens of inference frameworks. But full featured ones probably just TF / PyTorch / mxnet / Chainer that I am aware of (since caffe2 is merged into PyTorch).

piadodjanho 8y ago

In the academia people prefer PyTorch over TensorFlow.

typicalbender 8y ago

Old opinions strongly held. I think Angular 1 left a bad taste in peoples mouths and that gets carried over in perpetuity. Take php for example, I'm sure you can find plenty of devs who haven't touched php in 10+ years but will still say they despise it.

dekhn 8y ago

you might not be aware but there is a lot of unhappiness with TensorFlow in the community. For example, I hear many comments about how complex it is, how hard the basic API is to use, how many random parts it's acquired. Most of those people point at Torch, and in fact tensorflow is adopting some of Torch's approaches for this reason. It will be interesting to see if tensorflow retains a fairly high level of popularity over time. The 1->2 transition is a big risk for them because so many people are on TF 1, there's a ton of intrusive changes.

rjdagost 8y ago
For myself, I was surprised by how low-level Tensorflow was. I found that basic operations (things like saving and reloading a trained model) were much more difficult than in Keras, scikit-learn, or other machine learning libraries. Using Tensorflow feels sort of like computing derivatives with limits.

mattkrause 8y ago

There’s some frustration with tensorflow too. It often feels like there are a dozen different, somewhat incompatible ways to do 90% of something.

FridgeSeal 8y ago
And the documentation and examples seem to go out of their way to avoid mentioning when you should use any given approach; instead happily inexplicably using any one of them with wild abandon.