8 ms·

Right to Repair is already hurling into action in 2019

258 points by ahyattdev 8y ago

dare0505 8y ago
There was a recent story on HackerNews about the New York Times, which cut off ad exchanges and still kept growing revenue. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18920079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18920079 I wonder if it's a similar thing about the supposed benefits companies thought they were going to get about limiting the customers "right" to repair their products. On one hand, the benefit look "obvious", yet when you take into consideration the second-hand effects (like bad publicity, people getting frustrated by the inability to repair and getting a cheaper alternative) my guess is the costs were bigger than the benefits.
- doctorpangloss 8y ago
  In modern, highly efficient markets, it's impossible to tell the difference between a great business decision, great luck, a terrible business decision, and terrible luck. Right to repair is doomed if its proponents make it about the bottom line. You don't really know if this decent thing or another is going to increase or decrease revenue. Making it about doing what's right for the consumer is great. But better to promote Right to Repair during the boom times, when everyone's making money, and say that it's good for the bottom line, even if you don't really know. And therein lies the problem. People who are great consumer advocates are terrible liars.
- simion314 8y ago
  Apple admitted that people changing batteries and continuing using old phones affected their profits, this companies need in a way or other to make more and more profit and this means convincing you to get a new device every year or maximum two.
  - jandrese 8y ago
    Apple is telling themselves that at the same time they're saying that the prices are fine. They don't want to admit that they over-reached on the price, especially in countries like China.
  - baroffoos 8y ago
    And where does it end? When the whole world is buying a new iphone every year what do they do next? Release one every month? Force disable older iphones?
  - m0llusk 8y ago
    That is true, but the current situation is simpler. Design for disassembly and repair is expensive, time consuming, and difficult. It is far easier to have robots slap components together. That is plenty of explanation for phones now shipping.
    - simion314 8y ago
      Is it really cheaper or is something we were told. There are repairable phones that are not more expensive because of that, if you mean we can make this phone or laptop 2$ cheaper if we use glue instead of a screws then we can agree that we want to pay 2$ more to have the ability to swap the battery or keyboard instead of replacing the entire or half of the device.
  - xfitm3 8y ago
    I think the problem lies in the idea that publicly traded companies need to do more, more, and more. Stability should be rewarded, too.
- noir_lord 8y ago
  I've found that equipment that comes with the intention that end users can repair tends to be more robust (if somewhat more expensive) than the inverse. If you plan not to repair you can skimp on all sorts of things (fasteners that break when you open them, clips that snap off, you can pump glue in etc) that actually lead to complete failure. It's annoying, it's also hard (though the internet has helped) to get spares for things I can remember my father having no issue getting spares for, cooker elements, washing machine controllers and the like - I can remember when white goods came with a manual that had part codes to order those things in the back and I'm only 38, it's almost a form of learned helplessness.
  - maxerickson 8y ago
    Someone who can do the work of repairing appliances can make good money doing something else. As the manufacturing cost goes down, it really does make less and less sense to support repair. It's clearly a local optimum, ideally you'd do the engineering to make repair cheap too, but I don't see how you climb out of it.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - noir_lord 8y ago
      Tax the externalities unless we can efficiently recycle everything power efficiently. I.e. increase the cost of cheap disposable manufacturing so that making things repairable is the better economic decision (and better environmentally).
equalarrow 8y ago
I never bought the right to repair cry. I'm a tinkerer - always have been - and an iPhone owner. I bought my phones and knew what I was getting into. I don't think I've ever thrown away any of my old 'unrepairable' tech - I've mostly passed it on to relatives, traded it in, or recycled it. There are all kinds of way to mitigate junk in the environment and you can always...... just not buy. It's incredibly hard to build a successful product. Just look at the Pebble or other Kickstarter graveyard entries. I would never in my right mind tell Apple to build anything - if I could, I'd be richer than them. I know they have their reasons for designing things the way they do. As a consumer, I am thankful for amazing tech that pretty much works as expected. Telling them how to build their amazing products, which would just make them worse, is the pinnacle of narcissism.
- 24gttghh 8y ago
  >Telling them how to build their amazing products, which would just make them worse, is the pinnacle of narcissism. I would say it is a pinnacle of waste-reduction. We need to put the days of 'disposability' behind us or we are doomed as a species.
  - potta_coffee 8y ago
    Amen. I buy old cars specifically because I can fix them myself. Newer cars are getting so ridiculous. Even if you can fix them, they're arranged in such a way as to be very difficult. It boggles my mind that we're currently driving disposable CARS, of all things.
    - sokoloff 8y ago
      On the other hand, I spend way more time per year working on my 1966 Mustang than my wife’s 2005 CR-V than my 2015 LEAF. Brakes and other wear parts are easy even on modern cars and the modern ones seem to just need way less.
      - potta_coffee 8y ago
        I have no experience with Mustangs. Honda is pretty good. I've got a Subaru with 235k on it that's still going strong. How many miles have you got on your leaf? I think they're pretty cool but they don't have the same capability a normal car. Brakes are easy on pretty much any car but I'll do brakes, head gaskets, timing belts, pretty much anything. Most of that stuff is way more complicated on modern cars.
pitaj 8y ago
Intellectual property reform is wayyy overdue. The DMCA needs to be reworded to provide stronger protections to creators. The timetables need to be reduced.
monksy 8y ago
I would love to see stronger regulations on this. Ultimately this comes down to ownership. Companies have been heavily litigating users out of being able to own anything even if there has been money changing hands. (Also while including terms that make them not responsible for actions performed with a device you don't own). For example: Sony and Amazon can take away the digital books/games that you bought a copy for. Sony will do it if you ever enact your consumer rights to charge back for fraudulent activity. (See r/playstation on chargebacks) (I'm not just talking about the game/content in question.. I'm talking about your entire library)
- drtrlady 8y ago
  OEMs are definitely blocking repair, but not through litigation against consumers. The reason is they don't actually have the right to block you from repairing your equipment. The only thing they can do to you is sue you for violating the EULA contract. EULA are designed to remove your existing legal rights to repair under current patent, copyright, and ownership law. Its the EULA that are unfair and deceptive -- which is why state consumer protection laws can restore your right to repair.
  - monksy 8y ago
    When I said litigating I meant they're forcing users to agree to a contract (EULA/TOS) just to use the devices sold.
- adrianratnapala 8y ago
  I think we will see various governments pass regulations, and they might even help a little, but governments have stronger incentives to push the other way. Whether it is to protect IP, to enable police-interception or to prevent you from cranking up you radio signal governments and companies have joint interest in ensuring gadgets don't always obey their users. Often for good reason. Politicians therefore have a much stronger incentive to push for piece-meal regulations to get devices to do certain thigns (will sometimes be consumer-friendly) than to support a general right-to-tinker which can allow uses that powerful stakeholders (including the public) will dislike.
- 8y ago
pygy_ 8y ago
I had issues with the battery of my sole MacBook Air. The thing was still under warranty, but I since I needed it for work, I couldn't afford to let it for one week under the care of the local Apple licensee while they were ordering the part (which is mandated by Apple, no way around it). I ended up buying a battery on iFixit (I had already replaced the battery of my previous model), only to realize that iFixit wasn't selling Apple parts anymore. The "aftermarket battery" I now have is less that ideal, and apparently there's no way to source an OEM battery anymore. So it's nice we have the right to tinker with our machines, but if there are no spare parts, the point is moot :-/
- baroffoos 8y ago
  What makes you think the ifixit part is bad? I have found the unofficial parts they supply are of superb quality. I feel bad that I have never used the tool kit it came with again because its of such a high quality.
- megablast 8y ago
  Silly. Take it in to repair, then buy a new one. Return that when you get yours back. You don’t even need to give them a reason.
ncmncm 8y ago
Seems to me like they are hurtling, not hurling. But whatever it is, more power to them. It is amazing what corporations have got away with since they got the Feds to stop enforcing the anti-trust legislation still on the books. Apparently there is this dodgy economic theory that says as long as prices don't seem to be soaring, monopoly power is harmless, even where it is demonstrably suppressing alternative products, some of which would be markedly better. And, even where prices soar, people might be better off for it, somehow. Or, the monopoly might not actually last forever if they get complacent enough. And so on.
mistrial9 8y ago
.. those who do not learn history, are doomed to repeat <the same ask without results> Seriously, how much "positive" spin can be tolerated at this point? We are in a tsunami of consumer-product waste.. some of it with notable components.. the markets are failing to balance the industrial life cycles.. This is exactly part of a giant fail by humans in geologic time, to adapt to sustainable patterns. "It remains to be seen if we have poisoned the nest"
baroffoos 8y ago
I got some open source hardware recently and I wanted to upgrade it. For the first time I felt the joy of reading a schematic to work out which configuration the board is wired in so I can get the correct part. I think right to repair, open source hardware and 3d printers are going to be critical if we hope to turn around our throwaway society. It makes me so sad to see average people throwing out perfectly fine electronics because the OEM stopped supporting them or the battery got old. A few of the people in this thread are suggesting that you should simply not buy these bad devices but the fact is unless everyone stops there is no hope for the environment.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  I repair and modify computers and game consoles from the 1970s - 1990s and it's great how easy it is to get hold of schematics. I have an Amstrad 8086 PC for example which had full schematics for the PC itself and the monitor in the manual that came with the machine. This was the case with a lot of hifi equipment from this era as well. A whole device can be brought down by something simple like a dead capacitor which can be replaced in minutes. Without being able to debug that they'd just end up in landfill.
acd 8y ago
The planet are literally on fire due to global warming! Still producers make things that are buy and throw, not made last and to repair! If we are to stop global warming together we need to consume less things that we can repair things so they lasts longer. This will lead to less global warming and less thrash which will mean a better environment that we share!

258 points by ahyattdev 8y ago

There was a recent story on HackerNews about the New York Times, which cut off ad exchanges and still kept growing revenue. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18920079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18920079 I wonder if it's a similar thing about the supposed benefits companies thought they were going to get about limiting the customers "right" to repair their products. On one hand, the benefit look "obvious", yet when you take into consideration the second-hand effects (like bad publicity, people getting frustrated by the inability to repair and getting a cheaper alternative) my guess is the costs were bigger than the benefits.

doctorpangloss 8y ago
In modern, highly efficient markets, it's impossible to tell the difference between a great business decision, great luck, a terrible business decision, and terrible luck. Right to repair is doomed if its proponents make it about the bottom line. You don't really know if this decent thing or another is going to increase or decrease revenue. Making it about doing what's right for the consumer is great. But better to promote Right to Repair during the boom times, when everyone's making money, and say that it's good for the bottom line, even if you don't really know. And therein lies the problem. People who are great consumer advocates are terrible liars.
simion314 8y ago
Apple admitted that people changing batteries and continuing using old phones affected their profits, this companies need in a way or other to make more and more profit and this means convincing you to get a new device every year or maximum two.
- jandrese 8y ago
  Apple is telling themselves that at the same time they're saying that the prices are fine. They don't want to admit that they over-reached on the price, especially in countries like China.
- baroffoos 8y ago
  And where does it end? When the whole world is buying a new iphone every year what do they do next? Release one every month? Force disable older iphones?
- m0llusk 8y ago
  That is true, but the current situation is simpler. Design for disassembly and repair is expensive, time consuming, and difficult. It is far easier to have robots slap components together. That is plenty of explanation for phones now shipping.
  - simion314 8y ago
    Is it really cheaper or is something we were told. There are repairable phones that are not more expensive because of that, if you mean we can make this phone or laptop 2$ cheaper if we use glue instead of a screws then we can agree that we want to pay 2$ more to have the ability to swap the battery or keyboard instead of replacing the entire or half of the device.
- xfitm3 8y ago
  I think the problem lies in the idea that publicly traded companies need to do more, more, and more. Stability should be rewarded, too.
noir_lord 8y ago
I've found that equipment that comes with the intention that end users can repair tends to be more robust (if somewhat more expensive) than the inverse. If you plan not to repair you can skimp on all sorts of things (fasteners that break when you open them, clips that snap off, you can pump glue in etc) that actually lead to complete failure. It's annoying, it's also hard (though the internet has helped) to get spares for things I can remember my father having no issue getting spares for, cooker elements, washing machine controllers and the like - I can remember when white goods came with a manual that had part codes to order those things in the back and I'm only 38, it's almost a form of learned helplessness.
- maxerickson 8y ago
  Someone who can do the work of repairing appliances can make good money doing something else. As the manufacturing cost goes down, it really does make less and less sense to support repair. It's clearly a local optimum, ideally you'd do the engineering to make repair cheap too, but I don't see how you climb out of it.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - noir_lord 8y ago
    Tax the externalities unless we can efficiently recycle everything power efficiently. I.e. increase the cost of cheap disposable manufacturing so that making things repairable is the better economic decision (and better environmentally).

equalarrow 8y ago

I never bought the right to repair cry. I'm a tinkerer - always have been - and an iPhone owner. I bought my phones and knew what I was getting into. I don't think I've ever thrown away any of my old 'unrepairable' tech - I've mostly passed it on to relatives, traded it in, or recycled it. There are all kinds of way to mitigate junk in the environment and you can always...... just not buy. It's incredibly hard to build a successful product. Just look at the Pebble or other Kickstarter graveyard entries. I would never in my right mind tell Apple to build anything - if I could, I'd be richer than them. I know they have their reasons for designing things the way they do. As a consumer, I am thankful for amazing tech that pretty much works as expected. Telling them how to build their amazing products, which would just make them worse, is the pinnacle of narcissism.

24gttghh 8y ago
>Telling them how to build their amazing products, which would just make them worse, is the pinnacle of narcissism. I would say it is a pinnacle of waste-reduction. We need to put the days of 'disposability' behind us or we are doomed as a species.
- potta_coffee 8y ago
  Amen. I buy old cars specifically because I can fix them myself. Newer cars are getting so ridiculous. Even if you can fix them, they're arranged in such a way as to be very difficult. It boggles my mind that we're currently driving disposable CARS, of all things.
  - sokoloff 8y ago
    On the other hand, I spend way more time per year working on my 1966 Mustang than my wife’s 2005 CR-V than my 2015 LEAF. Brakes and other wear parts are easy even on modern cars and the modern ones seem to just need way less.
    - potta_coffee 8y ago
      I have no experience with Mustangs. Honda is pretty good. I've got a Subaru with 235k on it that's still going strong. How many miles have you got on your leaf? I think they're pretty cool but they don't have the same capability a normal car. Brakes are easy on pretty much any car but I'll do brakes, head gaskets, timing belts, pretty much anything. Most of that stuff is way more complicated on modern cars.

pitaj 8y ago

Intellectual property reform is wayyy overdue. The DMCA needs to be reworded to provide stronger protections to creators. The timetables need to be reduced.

monksy 8y ago

I would love to see stronger regulations on this. Ultimately this comes down to ownership. Companies have been heavily litigating users out of being able to own anything even if there has been money changing hands. (Also while including terms that make them not responsible for actions performed with a device you don't own). For example: Sony and Amazon can take away the digital books/games that you bought a copy for. Sony will do it if you ever enact your consumer rights to charge back for fraudulent activity. (See r/playstation on chargebacks) (I'm not just talking about the game/content in question.. I'm talking about your entire library)

drtrlady 8y ago
OEMs are definitely blocking repair, but not through litigation against consumers. The reason is they don't actually have the right to block you from repairing your equipment. The only thing they can do to you is sue you for violating the EULA contract. EULA are designed to remove your existing legal rights to repair under current patent, copyright, and ownership law. Its the EULA that are unfair and deceptive -- which is why state consumer protection laws can restore your right to repair.
- monksy 8y ago
  When I said litigating I meant they're forcing users to agree to a contract (EULA/TOS) just to use the devices sold.
adrianratnapala 8y ago
I think we will see various governments pass regulations, and they might even help a little, but governments have stronger incentives to push the other way. Whether it is to protect IP, to enable police-interception or to prevent you from cranking up you radio signal governments and companies have joint interest in ensuring gadgets don't always obey their users. Often for good reason. Politicians therefore have a much stronger incentive to push for piece-meal regulations to get devices to do certain thigns (will sometimes be consumer-friendly) than to support a general right-to-tinker which can allow uses that powerful stakeholders (including the public) will dislike.
8y ago

pygy_ 8y ago

I had issues with the battery of my sole MacBook Air. The thing was still under warranty, but I since I needed it for work, I couldn't afford to let it for one week under the care of the local Apple licensee while they were ordering the part (which is mandated by Apple, no way around it). I ended up buying a battery on iFixit (I had already replaced the battery of my previous model), only to realize that iFixit wasn't selling Apple parts anymore. The "aftermarket battery" I now have is less that ideal, and apparently there's no way to source an OEM battery anymore. So it's nice we have the right to tinker with our machines, but if there are no spare parts, the point is moot :-/

baroffoos 8y ago
What makes you think the ifixit part is bad? I have found the unofficial parts they supply are of superb quality. I feel bad that I have never used the tool kit it came with again because its of such a high quality.
megablast 8y ago
Silly. Take it in to repair, then buy a new one. Return that when you get yours back. You don’t even need to give them a reason.

ncmncm 8y ago

Seems to me like they are hurtling, not hurling. But whatever it is, more power to them. It is amazing what corporations have got away with since they got the Feds to stop enforcing the anti-trust legislation still on the books. Apparently there is this dodgy economic theory that says as long as prices don't seem to be soaring, monopoly power is harmless, even where it is demonstrably suppressing alternative products, some of which would be markedly better. And, even where prices soar, people might be better off for it, somehow. Or, the monopoly might not actually last forever if they get complacent enough. And so on.

mistrial9 8y ago

.. those who do not learn history, are doomed to repeat <the same ask without results> Seriously, how much "positive" spin can be tolerated at this point? We are in a tsunami of consumer-product waste.. some of it with notable components.. the markets are failing to balance the industrial life cycles.. This is exactly part of a giant fail by humans in geologic time, to adapt to sustainable patterns. "It remains to be seen if we have poisoned the nest"

baroffoos 8y ago

I got some open source hardware recently and I wanted to upgrade it. For the first time I felt the joy of reading a schematic to work out which configuration the board is wired in so I can get the correct part. I think right to repair, open source hardware and 3d printers are going to be critical if we hope to turn around our throwaway society. It makes me so sad to see average people throwing out perfectly fine electronics because the OEM stopped supporting them or the battery got old. A few of the people in this thread are suggesting that you should simply not buy these bad devices but the fact is unless everyone stops there is no hope for the environment.

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
I repair and modify computers and game consoles from the 1970s - 1990s and it's great how easy it is to get hold of schematics. I have an Amstrad 8086 PC for example which had full schematics for the PC itself and the monitor in the manual that came with the machine. This was the case with a lot of hifi equipment from this era as well. A whole device can be brought down by something simple like a dead capacitor which can be replaced in minutes. Without being able to debug that they'd just end up in landfill.

acd 8y ago

The planet are literally on fire due to global warming! Still producers make things that are buy and throw, not made last and to repair! If we are to stop global warming together we need to consume less things that we can repair things so they lasts longer. This will lead to less global warming and less thrash which will mean a better environment that we share!