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I've wondered if mathematics is a 'shared fiction'. Obviously money and laws are shared fictions, but I wondered if other species can't grasp math concepts (be

I've wondered if mathematics is a 'shared fiction'. Obviously money and laws are shared fictions, but I wondered if other species can't grasp math concepts (beyond counting) because there is a fictional or conceptual element that their brains can't process.

mjlee 8y ago
There is a fair amount of discussion about this in the most recent episode of the BBC show This Infinite Monkey Cage: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00024ph https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00024ph Should be downloadable as a podcast for the next couple of weeks from most sources. It's a fairly light take on science with some comedy and teasing, but the scientific element is respectable.
akvadrako 8y ago
Of course not, at least in any practical sense. Even plants use the mathematical properties of fractals to make effective structures. If we encountered aliens that are as alien as possible, they would agree on the ratio of the radius to the circumference of a circle on a flat plane.
- jpadkins 8y ago
  I'm not debating whether math exists or governs our reality. My question was can other species understand math concepts? Or is this a unique sapien genetic mutation. AFAIK, plants don't communicate or use math concepts (even if they grow using them).
  - pnongrata 8y ago
    As the author puts it, it's not about genetic mutations. Sapiens have the ability to share fictions, stories, in which we can all agree in order to live in a functioning society. So, in this sense, mathematics, laws and private companies are all 'fictions'. It only works if people believe in it.
- fmihaila 8y ago
  > Even plants use the mathematical properties of fractals to make effective structures. I think a better way to put it would be that plant growth processes exhibit patterns that can be modelled by the mathematics of fractals. "Using mathematics", the way I see it, evokes a mind that uses abstract mental constructs (organized as "mathematics") for the purpose of modelling some aspect of reality. To the best of our knowledge, plants seem to lack that kind of mind.
- jimbokun 8y ago
  "If we encountered aliens that are as alien as possible, they would agree on the ratio of the radius to the circumference of a circle on a flat plane." Not if the aliens had the mental capacity of, say, a house cat.
planteen 8y ago
Animals can do more than just count. Some birds understand ordering/ranking as well as the concepts of addition and subtraction. https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/science/pigeons-can-learn-higher-math-as-well-as-monkeys-study-suggests.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/science/pigeons-can-learn... https://www.sciencenewsforstudents.org/article/animals-can-do-almost-math https://www.sciencenewsforstudents.org/article/animals-can-d...
chillingeffect 8y ago
the math part of it, e.g. geometry isn't fiction, but some of the context around math, how we use it, which assumptions are acceptable is. For example, we overapply linearity and periodicit and overlook tooling cost.
raincom 8y ago
Philosophy of Mathematics deals with your question: whether numbers or sets exist? Some say they don't exist in our world, but exist in a Mathematical world (Platonism).
- mikelyons 8y ago
  We exist inside absolute infinity. Reality is not physical. math is just a subset of the infinite number of dimensions in the godhead we inhabit.
  - mikelyons 8y ago
    Downvoted by people locked into the naive-realist paradigm.
rafiki6 8y ago
In practical terms, math is a language, i.e. a medium of communication, which helps us model physical and real phenomena. There are certainly theories in math, but most of the "math" that matters is pretty matter of fact. It may not cover the entire spectrum but most math models do well enough to help us explain real things. Of course I'm not really talking about the more esoteric fields of math.

mjlee 8y ago

There is a fair amount of discussion about this in the most recent episode of the BBC show This Infinite Monkey Cage: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00024ph https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00024ph Should be downloadable as a podcast for the next couple of weeks from most sources. It's a fairly light take on science with some comedy and teasing, but the scientific element is respectable.

akvadrako 8y ago

Of course not, at least in any practical sense. Even plants use the mathematical properties of fractals to make effective structures. If we encountered aliens that are as alien as possible, they would agree on the ratio of the radius to the circumference of a circle on a flat plane.

jpadkins 8y ago
I'm not debating whether math exists or governs our reality. My question was can other species understand math concepts? Or is this a unique sapien genetic mutation. AFAIK, plants don't communicate or use math concepts (even if they grow using them).
- pnongrata 8y ago
  As the author puts it, it's not about genetic mutations. Sapiens have the ability to share fictions, stories, in which we can all agree in order to live in a functioning society. So, in this sense, mathematics, laws and private companies are all 'fictions'. It only works if people believe in it.
fmihaila 8y ago
> Even plants use the mathematical properties of fractals to make effective structures. I think a better way to put it would be that plant growth processes exhibit patterns that can be modelled by the mathematics of fractals. "Using mathematics", the way I see it, evokes a mind that uses abstract mental constructs (organized as "mathematics") for the purpose of modelling some aspect of reality. To the best of our knowledge, plants seem to lack that kind of mind.
jimbokun 8y ago
"If we encountered aliens that are as alien as possible, they would agree on the ratio of the radius to the circumference of a circle on a flat plane." Not if the aliens had the mental capacity of, say, a house cat.

planteen 8y ago

Animals can do more than just count. Some birds understand ordering/ranking as well as the concepts of addition and subtraction. https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/science/pigeons-can-learn-higher-math-as-well-as-monkeys-study-suggests.html https://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/science/pigeons-can-learn... https://www.sciencenewsforstudents.org/article/animals-can-do-almost-math https://www.sciencenewsforstudents.org/article/animals-can-d...

chillingeffect 8y ago

the math part of it, e.g. geometry isn't fiction, but some of the context around math, how we use it, which assumptions are acceptable is. For example, we overapply linearity and periodicit and overlook tooling cost.

raincom 8y ago

Philosophy of Mathematics deals with your question: whether numbers or sets exist? Some say they don't exist in our world, but exist in a Mathematical world (Platonism).

mikelyons 8y ago
We exist inside absolute infinity. Reality is not physical. math is just a subset of the infinite number of dimensions in the godhead we inhabit.
- mikelyons 8y ago
  Downvoted by people locked into the naive-realist paradigm.

rafiki6 8y ago

In practical terms, math is a language, i.e. a medium of communication, which helps us model physical and real phenomena. There are certainly theories in math, but most of the "math" that matters is pretty matter of fact. It may not cover the entire spectrum but most math models do well enough to help us explain real things. Of course I'm not really talking about the more esoteric fields of math.