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This comment is elitism at its worst. Even if you completely accept the validity of self-learning, there is still a place for formal education. Some people ca

This comment is elitism at its worst. Even if you completely accept the validity of self-learning, there is still a place for formal education. Some people can learn a lot about a complicated field on their own, but there are still plenty of people who would benefit from some pedagogical help.

amvalo 8y ago
Pretty sure the kids paying 60k a year to learn CS at Swarthmore are more elite.
- bytematic 8y ago
  low-effort reply that adds nothing to the conversation
  - philwelch 8y ago
    self-describing comment
goldenkey 8y ago
It's not elitism because learning how things work "under the hood" at the age of 20, when you've been using tech your whole life, it shows a lack of curiosity. Tech is inherently obfuscated, nail-biting debugging, and a crap ton of reverse engineering. CS is a subset of mathematics. Software development is a lifestyle and an ethos. No degree will provide that in full capacity like being a curious kid who wrote game mods or hacks, and looked into how the things he loves actually work. With something as accessible as software, you don't need privilege or thousand dollar lab equipment. If you don't know how things work under the hood because you waited for college...you're gonna have a bad time...
- nradov 8y ago
  Software development is a skilled trade, like being a plumber. It's not a lifestyle.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    I don't think that's true. If your job is checking off Jira tickets maybe it's the case. But there are plenty of areas where you need a lot of creativity and deep knowledge to make progress.
    - traek 8y ago
      > But there are plenty of areas where you need a lot of creativity and deep knowledge to make progress. This is also true for many other skilled trades.
    - nradov 8y ago
      It takes just as much creativity and deep knowledge to achieve the Master Plumber rating (or for any other skilled trade).
      - maxxxxx 8y ago
        Exactly. There are plumbers who just execute exactly what they learned in school but nothing else and there are others who can solve tricky problems. Same for programmers.
  - Hupriene 8y ago
    @sibling maxxxxx If you think that being a plumber or an electrician or a mechanic never requires creativity and deep knowledge, then I think you are looking down on those professions a bit too much. Much like programming, most of what those fields involve is routine grunt work. But from time to time, the usual ready-made solutions don't work and you'll have some tricky problem to solve.
- ck425 8y ago
  You really do need privilege. Not everyone has regular access to a computer or internet even these days. And not every is in an environment where it's considered ok to sit and tinker with software all day. More importantly we need people in our industry who have interests beyond just tinkering with things all days. We need balanced individuals who have skills beyond just code, who can look at problems from a wide array of viewpoints. If we only hire hackers who have been coding since they were young we're hiring an incredibly narrow set of people while trying to solve problems for billions of people around the world. That's not efficient! It's good for our ability to solve problems that we expand the tech community to include diverse individuals, including folk who didn't code as kids.
  - woolvalley 8y ago
    If you don't have regular access to a computer & the internet, then American CS college is miles away by cost comparison. Like seriously, a $200 chromebook that you earn by working a local minimum wage job, a household that feeds and clothes you and your local public library wifi is what you would mostly need. The requirements for college far exceeds that by a mile.
    - ck425 8y ago
      The poster was walking widely about the industry as a whole not just college. And there are lots of scholarship students who had to work to help put food on the table, who couldn't afford a chromebook and the time to go tinker.
      - woolvalley 8y ago
        In many colleges, the cost of one or two textbooks outdoes the cost of a chromebook. If you have to work to put food on the table in college, you can work to put a chromebook on the table too and spend your college time on self study vs college itself
overthemoon 8y ago
It's only elitist to the extent you believe people who teach themselves are somehow superior. Actual elitism is prioritizing the candidates who can afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars at top schools. That's... I mean, it's classic elite. Access to education is a core part of an aristocracy or upper class.
mesaframe 8y ago
Can't agree enough. I am a autodidact, and am still learning. And really every other week I wish I had a mentor/professor. Even though good books somehow covers up for no teacher. But, you can't just read thousand of books before solving a petty problem and there's where a Professor comes. They provide you with a distillation of years of work and experience. and not to mention the resources available for you at Uni
- amvalo 8y ago
  But your mentor can just be your coworker! That's how many professions have worked for a long time. I don't get where this idea that academia has a monopoly on difficult skills and knowledge comes from.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- mattmcknight 8y ago
  No CS professor I had ever helped me with a problem I had in CS. Now, as a Teaching Assistant I helped tens of other students diagnose bugs in their code, but that's a different game.
fokinsean 8y ago
Yup, honestly if I didn't have the structure of university I don't think I would have made it as a self-learned dev. Don't get me wrong I enjoy programming, however I very much needed the formal education process.
philwelch 8y ago
Isn't it...the opposite of elitism?

amvalo 8y ago

Pretty sure the kids paying 60k a year to learn CS at Swarthmore are more elite.

bytematic 8y ago
low-effort reply that adds nothing to the conversation
- philwelch 8y ago
  self-describing comment

goldenkey 8y ago

It's not elitism because learning how things work "under the hood" at the age of 20, when you've been using tech your whole life, it shows a lack of curiosity. Tech is inherently obfuscated, nail-biting debugging, and a crap ton of reverse engineering. CS is a subset of mathematics. Software development is a lifestyle and an ethos. No degree will provide that in full capacity like being a curious kid who wrote game mods or hacks, and looked into how the things he loves actually work. With something as accessible as software, you don't need privilege or thousand dollar lab equipment. If you don't know how things work under the hood because you waited for college...you're gonna have a bad time...

nradov 8y ago
Software development is a skilled trade, like being a plumber. It's not a lifestyle.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  I don't think that's true. If your job is checking off Jira tickets maybe it's the case. But there are plenty of areas where you need a lot of creativity and deep knowledge to make progress.
  - traek 8y ago
    > But there are plenty of areas where you need a lot of creativity and deep knowledge to make progress. This is also true for many other skilled trades.
  - nradov 8y ago
    It takes just as much creativity and deep knowledge to achieve the Master Plumber rating (or for any other skilled trade).
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      Exactly. There are plumbers who just execute exactly what they learned in school but nothing else and there are others who can solve tricky problems. Same for programmers.
- Hupriene 8y ago
  @sibling maxxxxx If you think that being a plumber or an electrician or a mechanic never requires creativity and deep knowledge, then I think you are looking down on those professions a bit too much. Much like programming, most of what those fields involve is routine grunt work. But from time to time, the usual ready-made solutions don't work and you'll have some tricky problem to solve.
ck425 8y ago
You really do need privilege. Not everyone has regular access to a computer or internet even these days. And not every is in an environment where it's considered ok to sit and tinker with software all day. More importantly we need people in our industry who have interests beyond just tinkering with things all days. We need balanced individuals who have skills beyond just code, who can look at problems from a wide array of viewpoints. If we only hire hackers who have been coding since they were young we're hiring an incredibly narrow set of people while trying to solve problems for billions of people around the world. That's not efficient! It's good for our ability to solve problems that we expand the tech community to include diverse individuals, including folk who didn't code as kids.
- woolvalley 8y ago
  If you don't have regular access to a computer & the internet, then American CS college is miles away by cost comparison. Like seriously, a $200 chromebook that you earn by working a local minimum wage job, a household that feeds and clothes you and your local public library wifi is what you would mostly need. The requirements for college far exceeds that by a mile.
  - ck425 8y ago
    The poster was walking widely about the industry as a whole not just college. And there are lots of scholarship students who had to work to help put food on the table, who couldn't afford a chromebook and the time to go tinker.
    - woolvalley 8y ago
      In many colleges, the cost of one or two textbooks outdoes the cost of a chromebook. If you have to work to put food on the table in college, you can work to put a chromebook on the table too and spend your college time on self study vs college itself

overthemoon 8y ago

It's only elitist to the extent you believe people who teach themselves are somehow superior. Actual elitism is prioritizing the candidates who can afford to spend tens of thousands of dollars at top schools. That's... I mean, it's classic elite. Access to education is a core part of an aristocracy or upper class.

mesaframe 8y ago

Can't agree enough. I am a autodidact, and am still learning. And really every other week I wish I had a mentor/professor. Even though good books somehow covers up for no teacher. But, you can't just read thousand of books before solving a petty problem and there's where a Professor comes. They provide you with a distillation of years of work and experience. and not to mention the resources available for you at Uni

amvalo 8y ago
But your mentor can just be your coworker! That's how many professions have worked for a long time. I don't get where this idea that academia has a monopoly on difficult skills and knowledge comes from.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
mattmcknight 8y ago
No CS professor I had ever helped me with a problem I had in CS. Now, as a Teaching Assistant I helped tens of other students diagnose bugs in their code, but that's a different game.

fokinsean 8y ago

Yup, honestly if I didn't have the structure of university I don't think I would have made it as a self-learned dev. Don't get me wrong I enjoy programming, however I very much needed the formal education process.

philwelch 8y ago

Isn't it...the opposite of elitism?