7 ms·

Lapis Lazuli: A Blue More Precious Than Gold

100 points by anacleto 8y ago

pseudolus 8y ago
One of the oldest exemplars of the use of lapis lazuli is "Ram in the Thicket", a pair of statues that date back to sometime between 2600-2400 BC. [0][1][2]. They're extremely intricate and, unfortunately, photographs don't do them justice. One of the pair is at the University of Pennsylvania and the other is at the British Museum. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_in_a_Thicket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_in_a_Thicket [1] https://britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=368265&partId=1 https://britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collect... [2] https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1920&bih=912&ei=8_lJXIK9KOOqggeTwr_gBw&q=ram+in+the+thicket&oq=ram+in+the+thicket&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24l8.518.5642..5960...2.0..1.232.1485.17j2j1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.....0..0i5i30j0i10i24.zGUWPkA6_v4 https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1920&bi...
RealDinosaur 8y ago
So now we make PB29 (ultramarine) synthetically, and you can get tubes of ultramarine paint for around $5 for 250 ml of the stuff! This is purer than any artist could have gotten back then! We also manufacturer other synthetic pigments such as PB15:3 (Phthalo Blue), and PR122 (Quinacridone Magenta) which are far superior than anything historically. Phthalo blue in particular is one of the strongest tinting colors in an artists pallet and is so cheap to manufacture. Occasionally colors get discontinued, as was the case with Quin Gold (PO49). This is as artists are a secondary market, and when an industry stops needing a pigment, the few artists that use it have no influence. Watercolors for instance come in tiny 5ml tubes! There is also some confusion about pigments created by the art supply companies. Classical colors such as 'yellow ochre' and 'burnt sienna' get replaced with modern pigments such as PR101. Golden is very good at labeling paints. Winsor and Newton and Royal Talens... not so much! https://www.justpaint.org/sorry-wrong-umber-part-i/ https://www.justpaint.org/sorry-wrong-umber-part-i/ I love geeking out over this stuff. Appendix: You want to start painting acrylics? Get the following: Cadmium Yellow Light / Cadmium Lemon (PY35) Cadmium Yellow Deep (Make sure single pigment) (PY35) Cadmium Red Light (PR108) Quin Magenta / Quin Rose (PR122) Ultramarine Blue (PB29) Phthalo Blue (PB15:3) Titanium White (PW6) Ivory Black (Pbk9) Burnt Sienna (PBr7)
- toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
  I’m finding this fascinating, any other good links to learn about this kind of thing?
  - RealDinosaur 8y ago
    The other fascinating thing is light-fastness. PR83 (Alizarin Crimson) is a cool red (purple facing), and is recommended by many art teachers... It's also objectively shit as a pigment. It is not light-fast at all, and fades after only a few months. https://www.justpaint.org/alizarin-crimson-now-you-see-it/ https://www.justpaint.org/alizarin-crimson-now-you-see-it/ Yet art teachers continue to recommend it. Nowadays most companies sell it as a 'Hue'. That is a mixture of more light-fast paints designed to emulate the original, but some companies sell 'Alizarin Crimson Genuine', which is still recommended by academics to this day. Other fugitive colors include aureolin and chrome yellow. The later of which was used by Van Gogh and has caused his paintings to fade irreversibly. https://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i5/Van-Goghs-Fading-Colors-Inspire.html https://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i5/Van-Goghs-Fading-Colors-I...
    - toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
      Thanks, I’m going to read myself into a coma tonight.
      - DoctorOetker 8y ago
        > ... read myself into a coma is this a common phrase or regular expression? American or British english? I do this all the time, and when I start to feel like I'm going to crash, I force myself until I'm close to the next deep insight (like when you see a set of equations slowly taking a certain shape and you think "ok, I think I see where this is going") and stop reading there and then, go to sleep, and the next morning ... the very first thing I think about is finishing that train of thought... It somehow helps me remember the information better, I don't know why but uf I had to take a guess: when we expose ourself to information we aren't wondering about, our brain does not perceive it as important, while if you set up the experience as a cliffhanger, you trick your brain into pondering the unfinished train of thought, both as you try to fall asleep and the moment you wake up and realize you want to finish the train of thought... it's like you get to pick one low effort memorizable deep insight per day (you could reach more during the day, but those require higher level of effort, and don't reside in the uncertain or pondering phase long enough to subconsciously gain importance, we remember our big breakthroughs not our smaller ones, and when you know you will read the answer in a few seconds your brain exerts less effort in pondering the questionn)
gww 8y ago
I always wanted to read a book on the history of pigments and other artist supplies from a chemistry perspective. In particular, how they were found, isolated and used.
- pseudolus 8y ago
  Try "Bright Earth: Art and the Invention of Colour" by Phillip Ball. [0]. If you're just interested in the colour blue there's also "Blue: The History of a Color" by Michel Pastoureau [1]. The Pastoureau book is more of an overview of art history than a discussion of the history underlying the discovery of the pigment itself. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Bright-Earth-Art-Invention-Color/dp/0226036286 https://www.amazon.com/Bright-Earth-Art-Invention-Color/dp/0... [1] https://www.amazon.com/Blue-History-Color-Michel-Pastoureau/dp/0691090505 https://www.amazon.com/Blue-History-Color-Michel-Pastoureau/...
  - gww 8y ago
    Oh cool I will check those out for sure thanks!
- hbosch 8y ago
  If you like a fictional tale of such a thing i can recommend the smart, fun Sacre Bleu by Christopher Moore. :)
  - gww 8y ago
    Thanks, that looks fun. I haven't read one of Moore's books since Practical Demonkeeping, which I enjoyed immensely.
smhenderson 8y ago
Just heard an interesting story[1] on NPR recently about scientists who were studying teeth in medieval skeletons and found Lapis Lazuli in a woman's teeth. This led them to the hypothesis that she was a scribe and that the residue in her teeth came from her putting a paint brush in her mouth. The upshot of the article is about rethinking the traditional notion that all/most scribes in the middle ages were merry old monks. But they do describe what Lapis Lazuli is and what it was used for back then. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/01/09/683283982/a-blue-clue-in-medieval-teeth-may-bespeak-a-womans-artistry-circa-1-000-a-d https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/01/09/6832839...
vanderZwan 8y ago
It's kind of funny how much your perception of old art changes once you know about the value of the blue pigment. If you don't know, the Scrovegni Chapel is just a very blue chapel. If you do, it becomes a ridiculous display of wealth. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrovegni_Chapel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrovegni_Chapel [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47QgqdeSi0U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47QgqdeSi0U
mtw 8y ago
Interesting article but the article does not say how much was Lapis Lazuli was worth vs gold. The author gets away with "... often prized over gold...". If Lapis Lazuli was valued only once over gold in its entire history, then statement is true, which isn't really useful info. Click-bait title much?
sandworm101 8y ago
I cannot read about lapis without being reminded of this tidbit: "In the middle of the room, set into the lapis lazuli floor, is the foundation stone of the Home of FIFA." https://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/home-of-fifa/fifa-headquarters.html https://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/home-of-fifa/fifa-headquarte...
rrauenza 8y ago
How successful in industry are these "please subscribe" popups that come up after about 5 seconds? Does anyone really subscribe? Is the conversion rate really significantly greater than about 0%? I have never once put my email address into the box and have a hard time imagining anyone doing so -- yet these popup boxes persist.
- J5892 8y ago
  Very. Our email signups jumped by ~10% when we started using them. And the bounce rate increase was negligible. I despise them as much as you do, but they work.
  - mikekchar 8y ago
    I've actually come to the conclusion that we have people come to our website just to get the popup to subscribe to our newsletter. I blows my mind. However, I've known for a while that it is a mistake to think that my views are representative of normal people ;-)
  - posterboy 8y ago
    I only suppose that the bounce rate is much higher than the email conversion rate.
- jmts 8y ago
  I find it jarring and it makes me less likely to want to read whatever it was I clicked the link for. In some cases I find it so annoying that I consider my options for avoiding that site again altogether. Then again I seem to be pickier than most.
MentallyRetired 8y ago
tbh I just use it to dye my bed blue.
DoctorOetker 8y ago
Lapis Lazuli also plays a big role in the film "Land of the Enlightened" where you get to see kids run the show for once :)
crazynick4 8y ago
I've heard that one of the reasons that ancient paintings kept their colors for so long is because they got them from grinding up the stones like Lapis. Not sure how they make the modern colors but apparently they fade a lot faster. Some of these older paintings are hundreds of years old and still look fresh, which is pretty impressive.
mlthoughts2018 8y ago
I recommend the song Lazuli by the band Beach House very much. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvwl7INZykc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvwl7INZykc

100 points by anacleto 8y ago

One of the oldest exemplars of the use of lapis lazuli is "Ram in the Thicket", a pair of statues that date back to sometime between 2600-2400 BC. [0][1][2]. They're extremely intricate and, unfortunately, photographs don't do them justice. One of the pair is at the University of Pennsylvania and the other is at the British Museum. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_in_a_Thicket https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_in_a_Thicket [1] https://britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=368265&partId=1 https://britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collect... [2] https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1920&bih=912&ei=8_lJXIK9KOOqggeTwr_gBw&q=ram+in+the+thicket&oq=ram+in+the+thicket&gs_l=img.3..0j0i24l8.518.5642..5960...2.0..1.232.1485.17j2j1......0....1..gws-wiz-img.....0..0i5i30j0i10i24.zGUWPkA6_v4 https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1920&bi...

RealDinosaur 8y ago

So now we make PB29 (ultramarine) synthetically, and you can get tubes of ultramarine paint for around $5 for 250 ml of the stuff! This is purer than any artist could have gotten back then! We also manufacturer other synthetic pigments such as PB15:3 (Phthalo Blue), and PR122 (Quinacridone Magenta) which are far superior than anything historically. Phthalo blue in particular is one of the strongest tinting colors in an artists pallet and is so cheap to manufacture. Occasionally colors get discontinued, as was the case with Quin Gold (PO49). This is as artists are a secondary market, and when an industry stops needing a pigment, the few artists that use it have no influence. Watercolors for instance come in tiny 5ml tubes! There is also some confusion about pigments created by the art supply companies. Classical colors such as 'yellow ochre' and 'burnt sienna' get replaced with modern pigments such as PR101. Golden is very good at labeling paints. Winsor and Newton and Royal Talens... not so much! https://www.justpaint.org/sorry-wrong-umber-part-i/ https://www.justpaint.org/sorry-wrong-umber-part-i/ I love geeking out over this stuff. Appendix: You want to start painting acrylics? Get the following: Cadmium Yellow Light / Cadmium Lemon (PY35) Cadmium Yellow Deep (Make sure single pigment) (PY35) Cadmium Red Light (PR108) Quin Magenta / Quin Rose (PR122) Ultramarine Blue (PB29) Phthalo Blue (PB15:3) Titanium White (PW6) Ivory Black (Pbk9) Burnt Sienna (PBr7)

toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
I’m finding this fascinating, any other good links to learn about this kind of thing?
- RealDinosaur 8y ago
  The other fascinating thing is light-fastness. PR83 (Alizarin Crimson) is a cool red (purple facing), and is recommended by many art teachers... It's also objectively shit as a pigment. It is not light-fast at all, and fades after only a few months. https://www.justpaint.org/alizarin-crimson-now-you-see-it/ https://www.justpaint.org/alizarin-crimson-now-you-see-it/ Yet art teachers continue to recommend it. Nowadays most companies sell it as a 'Hue'. That is a mixture of more light-fast paints designed to emulate the original, but some companies sell 'Alizarin Crimson Genuine', which is still recommended by academics to this day. Other fugitive colors include aureolin and chrome yellow. The later of which was used by Van Gogh and has caused his paintings to fade irreversibly. https://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i5/Van-Goghs-Fading-Colors-Inspire.html https://cen.acs.org/articles/94/i5/Van-Goghs-Fading-Colors-I...
  - toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
    Thanks, I’m going to read myself into a coma tonight.
    - DoctorOetker 8y ago
      > ... read myself into a coma is this a common phrase or regular expression? American or British english? I do this all the time, and when I start to feel like I'm going to crash, I force myself until I'm close to the next deep insight (like when you see a set of equations slowly taking a certain shape and you think "ok, I think I see where this is going") and stop reading there and then, go to sleep, and the next morning ... the very first thing I think about is finishing that train of thought... It somehow helps me remember the information better, I don't know why but uf I had to take a guess: when we expose ourself to information we aren't wondering about, our brain does not perceive it as important, while if you set up the experience as a cliffhanger, you trick your brain into pondering the unfinished train of thought, both as you try to fall asleep and the moment you wake up and realize you want to finish the train of thought... it's like you get to pick one low effort memorizable deep insight per day (you could reach more during the day, but those require higher level of effort, and don't reside in the uncertain or pondering phase long enough to subconsciously gain importance, we remember our big breakthroughs not our smaller ones, and when you know you will read the answer in a few seconds your brain exerts less effort in pondering the questionn)

gww 8y ago

I always wanted to read a book on the history of pigments and other artist supplies from a chemistry perspective. In particular, how they were found, isolated and used.

pseudolus 8y ago
Try "Bright Earth: Art and the Invention of Colour" by Phillip Ball. [0]. If you're just interested in the colour blue there's also "Blue: The History of a Color" by Michel Pastoureau [1]. The Pastoureau book is more of an overview of art history than a discussion of the history underlying the discovery of the pigment itself. [0] https://www.amazon.com/Bright-Earth-Art-Invention-Color/dp/0226036286 https://www.amazon.com/Bright-Earth-Art-Invention-Color/dp/0... [1] https://www.amazon.com/Blue-History-Color-Michel-Pastoureau/dp/0691090505 https://www.amazon.com/Blue-History-Color-Michel-Pastoureau/...
- gww 8y ago
  Oh cool I will check those out for sure thanks!
hbosch 8y ago
If you like a fictional tale of such a thing i can recommend the smart, fun Sacre Bleu by Christopher Moore. :)
- gww 8y ago
  Thanks, that looks fun. I haven't read one of Moore's books since Practical Demonkeeping, which I enjoyed immensely.

smhenderson 8y ago

Just heard an interesting story[1] on NPR recently about scientists who were studying teeth in medieval skeletons and found Lapis Lazuli in a woman's teeth. This led them to the hypothesis that she was a scribe and that the residue in her teeth came from her putting a paint brush in her mouth. The upshot of the article is about rethinking the traditional notion that all/most scribes in the middle ages were merry old monks. But they do describe what Lapis Lazuli is and what it was used for back then. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/01/09/683283982/a-blue-clue-in-medieval-teeth-may-bespeak-a-womans-artistry-circa-1-000-a-d https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2019/01/09/6832839...

vanderZwan 8y ago

It's kind of funny how much your perception of old art changes once you know about the value of the blue pigment. If you don't know, the Scrovegni Chapel is just a very blue chapel. If you do, it becomes a ridiculous display of wealth. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrovegni_Chapel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrovegni_Chapel [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47QgqdeSi0U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47QgqdeSi0U

mtw 8y ago

Interesting article but the article does not say how much was Lapis Lazuli was worth vs gold. The author gets away with "... often prized over gold...". If Lapis Lazuli was valued only once over gold in its entire history, then statement is true, which isn't really useful info. Click-bait title much?

sandworm101 8y ago

I cannot read about lapis without being reminded of this tidbit: "In the middle of the room, set into the lapis lazuli floor, is the foundation stone of the Home of FIFA." https://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/home-of-fifa/fifa-headquarters.html https://www.fifa.com/about-fifa/home-of-fifa/fifa-headquarte...

rrauenza 8y ago

How successful in industry are these "please subscribe" popups that come up after about 5 seconds? Does anyone really subscribe? Is the conversion rate really significantly greater than about 0%? I have never once put my email address into the box and have a hard time imagining anyone doing so -- yet these popup boxes persist.

J5892 8y ago
Very. Our email signups jumped by ~10% when we started using them. And the bounce rate increase was negligible. I despise them as much as you do, but they work.
- mikekchar 8y ago
  I've actually come to the conclusion that we have people come to our website just to get the popup to subscribe to our newsletter. I blows my mind. However, I've known for a while that it is a mistake to think that my views are representative of normal people ;-)
- posterboy 8y ago
  I only suppose that the bounce rate is much higher than the email conversion rate.
jmts 8y ago
I find it jarring and it makes me less likely to want to read whatever it was I clicked the link for. In some cases I find it so annoying that I consider my options for avoiding that site again altogether. Then again I seem to be pickier than most.

MentallyRetired 8y ago

tbh I just use it to dye my bed blue.

DoctorOetker 8y ago

Lapis Lazuli also plays a big role in the film "Land of the Enlightened" where you get to see kids run the show for once :)

crazynick4 8y ago

I've heard that one of the reasons that ancient paintings kept their colors for so long is because they got them from grinding up the stones like Lapis. Not sure how they make the modern colors but apparently they fade a lot faster. Some of these older paintings are hundreds of years old and still look fresh, which is pretty impressive.

mlthoughts2018 8y ago

I recommend the song Lazuli by the band Beach House very much. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvwl7INZykc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvwl7INZykc