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Oracle and Apple Announce OpenJDK Project for Mac OS X
- ivanmantova 16y agoThis oughta help stop the FUD.
- rbanffy 16y agoSo... Is this good or bad? I know Oracle is giving its back (not to say finger) to the Apache Foundation, but OpenJDK is a GPL-licensed version of the Java stack. Why is it bad (as in why so many complain) that Apple, Oracle and IBM cluster around OpenJDK? Why is the GPL not good enough?
- ig1 16y agoIt's not "clean", only JRE that have passed the TCK (Java Compatibility Kit) get the patent waiver, if you modify the JRE and don't get it re-certified then you lose the patent protection. And to get it certified you have to agree to a restrictive licence from Oracle. Sun promised Apache to make the TCK available under an open licence but this never happened. IBM was previously putting pressure on Sun/Oracle to make the TCK available under the open licence to Apache that they had promised, since IBM have switched to OpenJDK, it removes that pressure and makes Java much more closed.
- rbanffy 16y ago> only JRE that have passed the TCK (Java Compatibility Kit) get the patent waiver, No. That's not true. As long as your code is derived from OpenJDK (and unavoidably licensed under GPL), you are protected from patent lawsuits from Oracle (for technology contributed to OpenJDK). What it doesn't protect you from is trademark issues if you claim whatever thing you have is Java. You can say "pretty much compatible with that famous VM invented by Sun(TM)" and you are clear. > And to get it certified you have to agree to a restrictive licence from Oracle Again, the GPL states you can use OpenJDK for whatever you want. If you decide to run a nuclear reactor with it, you are free to do so (as only the Oracle JDK is licensed under such restrictive terms) > Sun promised Apache to make the TCK available under an open licence but this never happened. I understand this is the core of the problem. What is not clear is how this adversely affects users. > since IBM have switched to OpenJDK, it removes that pressure and makes Java much more closed. We still have OpenJDK licensed under GPL. How's that closed?
- va_coder 16y ago>"What it doesn't protect you from is trademark issues if you claim whatever thing you have is Java." There's more to it than that. If I call it Dalvik, like Google did, why would I get a lawsuit? Edit: I have to say I don't think I even understand what open source means anymore. If I release an open source product, but then say you can only make modifications and sell it if you pass my tests (which I don't make freely available), it's not really open right?
- scott_s 16y agoI believe the reason is that it was not derived from anything, such as OpenJDK, that had existing licensing protection.
- rbanffy 16y ago> If I release an open source product, but then say you can only make modifications and sell it if you pass my tests (which I don't make freely available), it's not really open right? I believe your restriction on making derived works conflicts with just about every free and open-source license out there. What Sun did and Oracle does prohibit you from doing is calling something that doesn't pass the non-freely-available TCK by the name Java or implying it's Java-compatible. As for Dalvik, it's not derived from a project Oracle contributed the said patents. In this way, Dalvik is not protected agains Oracle's lawyers.
- va_coder 16y agoI think reversing a linked-list using recursion is a walk in the park compared to trying to understand patent/trademark law for software.
- stonemetal 16y agoYou would not get a trademark lawsuit. Patents have different rules.
- ig1 16y agoIt's ambiguous. Oracle's not the only company with patents in Java technology, the TCK patent protection clause is stronger than that in the GPL, in that it give you protection against non-Oracle patents that are part of Java. It's arguable that Oracle implicitly licences these as part of the GPL patent clause, but it's not watertight. Third-party implementations such as Harmony (and presumably GNU Classpath) obviously don't have patent protection because they neither derive from OpenJDK nor have a TCK licence. Java isn't open until anyone can freely implement it.
- meemo 16y agoI don't think this has anything to do with that dispute (at least on Apple side). Rather, Apple wanted to lose the responsibility of bundling Java with Mac, but they couldn't abandon Java altogether.
- nwjsmith 16y agoI'm itching to take a look at Apple's "foundation for a new graphical client"
- Nitramp 16y agoI wonder why they don't just release their existing AWT/Swing adaptations? Either they are afraid of people using the Mac OS style on Windows, or that by open sourcing the style, they loose their copyright to it, or the code is such as mess that they'd rather not release it into the open.
- irons 16y agoHow many years-old projects with deep hooks into a proprietary OS, written with no intention of ever being open sourced, would or could be opened on any reasonable timeframe? Any precedents spring to mind?
- yoden 16y agoThe old backend was written with quartz, and hopelessly integrated into the OSX internals. It's part of the reason why Apple had to ship their own java. The new backend will only depend on OpenGL, which is much better for anyone who isn't looking to lock you into their format. Which, oddly enough, appears to be Apple's goal with it's handling of java.
- Hagelin 16y ago"To set expectations, the first drop will be effectively a "SoyLatte"-level implementation, but is packaged as a Universal Mac OS X .jdk bundle that can be dropped directly into /Library/Java/JavaVirtualMachines. Over the coming weeks and months, we will be adding pieces and parts of our Java SE 6 implementation to the public project, and will cut over from using an X11-based AWT to a Cocoa NSEvent-based one with a new OpenGL-backed graphics layer. There are several parts of our Java SE 6 implementation (like the AWT widgets) that are not contributable, in much the same way that several parts of Oracle's implementation are not. However, the vast majority of our Swing Aqua Look and Feel implementation is, as well as the eAWT/eIO API. We intend to host the legacy AWT widget set using lightweight peers, but that work is still in progress." Mike Swingler (Apple Java Engineer) on the java-dev list http://lists.apple.com/archives/Java-dev/2010/Nov/msg00104.html http://lists.apple.com/archives/Java-dev/2010/Nov/msg00104.h...
- riobard 16y ago“…the foundation for a new graphical client” Cocoa??
- yakisoft 16y agoProbably more importantly not X11.
- dekz 16y ago"we will be adding pieces and parts of our Java SE 6 implementation to the public project, and will cut over from using an X11-based AWT to a Cocoa NSEvent-based one with a new OpenGL-backed graphics layer." http://lists.apple.com/archives/Java-dev/2010/Nov/msg00104.html http://lists.apple.com/archives/Java-dev/2010/Nov/msg00104.h...
- Autre 16y agoThough I'm glad for this desicion, I can't help but wonder: what's in it for oracle? The puny 5% of desktops running mac os?
- cryptoz 16y agoYou don't think that Apple has a bright future building computers? This deal wouldn't have made sense 5 years ago, but Apple is an important force right now and is poised to be a huge part of the future. The fact that iPad and iPhone don't run Java right now isn't relevant. They very well might in the next 5 years. Things change fast!
- silvestrov 16y agoMoney. They're in for the money. a) Even if it is only 5%, it is almost pure profit for Oracle. Many big companies would like to expand 5% for almost free. b) The decision maker might run mac. No mac support, no sales. (One of my customers is like that). This is similar to the "American’s with Disabilities Act" which requires accesibility even though less than 5% of the users are disabled. c) 5% is the average. Many companies aren't average, e.g. universities and research based companies.
- archgrove 16y agoYour point (c) is the most important, in my opinion. I work in computing theory research at a major UK university, and well over 50% of the desktops I see used are Macs, and about 80% of the laptops. Many of our undergraduates also use Macs. A working Java implementation is quite important for this area - both for Apple, to ensure we keep buying them and Oracle, to stop people just saying "Well, we don't use that much Java anymore, let's just drop it".
- jonknee 16y agoEllison gets another checklist on his sales brochure and will now continue to get a christmas card from his buddy Jobs.
- rimantas 16y agoMy guess would be that that number is much higher for developers (at least not .NET developers). Just look around at conferences. Heck, just look at this: http://james.gosling.usesthis.com/ http://james.gosling.usesthis.com/
- haribilalic 16y agoI'm glad that they're not throwing everything away. I wonder if this will provide any benefit to the Linux OpenJDK.
- Torn 16y agoIf based on Cocoa, with more closed-source hooks, then probably not.
- yoden 16y agoIt's to be based on OpenGL. So hopefully!
- yoden 16y agoMy personal hope is that they'll do enough work to make the OpenGL Swing backend actually work. When our web browsers are starting to have credible 3D acceleration on our platforms... it's pretty unacceptable that the Swing OpenGL pipeline is so broken.
- pluies 16y agoThis is off-topic, but I'm amazed by the descriptions at the end of TFA (I know, I know, it's a press release, but still...) Oracle is the world’s most complete, open and integrated business software and hardware systems company. (...) Let's grant integrated and complete, but definitely not "open". Though this is dwarfed by Apple's incredible self-praise: Apple designs Macs, the best personal computers in the world, along with OS X, iLife, iWork, and professional software. Apple leads the digital music revolution with its iPods and iTunes online store. Apple is reinventing the mobile phone with its revolutionary iPhone and App Store, and has recently introduced its magical iPad which is defining the future of mobile media and computing devices. Woah there cowboy! A bit of humility maybe?
- brown9-2 16y agoJust goes to show how meaningless "open" has become.
- tertius 16y agoI'm no fanboy, believe me. But most of that is pretty accurate.
- kevindication 16y agoThe iPad is magical?
- larsberg 16y agoIndeed. And seemingly animate as well, since it "is defining the future of mobile media and computing devices." Would've thought that was the folks making and using them, but hey, I'm not the one wearing the turtlenecks. (And yes, I own an iPad. But probably not the one that is going around defining things. Other than words. With a dictionary app.)
- chevas 16y agoI trust Google with my email more than facebook.
- yakisoft 16y agoThis is really Oracle's news rather than Apple's.
- Tyrannosaurs 16y agoIt's actually a more important announcement for Apple though in light of their stopping development of their own JVM. This allows them to still be behind it without having to actually do the work.
- cosmicray 16y agoIt also means one bug repository, instead of two. Bugs can now (or soon) be filed against OpenJDK, and not in Apple's radar bugbase.
- yoden 16y agoIf you're following the apple-java mailing list, you'll see this isn't the (supposedly) the plan. They're contributing eAWT and eIO to openJDK, plus assisting in writing a new OpenGL based Swing backend and Swing lightweight placeholders for AWT components. To quote Mike Swingler (Apple java engineering): "Cheers all, we look forward to working with you in public!" Sounds like the plan is to continue Apple's work as part of a respected open source project. Compared to developing in secret like they have been, what's not to like about that?
- archgrove 16y agoAlmost as important is the announcement that the current Apple JDK, 1.6, will still ship in Lion. Given the release cycle of Java 7, that's a big relief to Java users and given the HN crowd, budding Android developers. Moreover, it seems to quash the (ridiculous) rumours that OS X Lion will end up being some locked down antithesis of previous versions of OS X.
- swannodette 16y ago> that's a big relief to Java users and given the HN crowd, budding Android developers And don't forget the Clojure, Scala, JRuby, Groovy, Jython, Mirah et al users ;)
- mtinkerhess 16y agoDoes this mean there's some chance you'll be able to use Java for Mac App Store apps?
- ianlevesque 16y agoNo they state right in the Mac App Store guidelines that you cannot.
- markkanof 16y agoApple has certainly back-pedaled on App Store guidelines before. Lately they seem to start with the most restrictive set of guidelines to set a precedent and then ease things as they see fit. It's always easier to start strict and then relax over time, than it is to go the other way. Especially when the topic is programming languages/frameworks where over time a large code base can be built up. Perhaps now that Java will not be considered deprecated from the platform, it will be allowed for us in App Store applications.
- rcoder 16y agoJava will still be an "optional" install, much like Flash, Silverlight, et. al. Because Apple can't guarantee that it will be pre-loaded on every Mac, any apps listed in the Mac App Store that used Java wouldn't work on "factory" Macs. I'm guessing that's a deal-breaker for Jobs & co.
- chc 16y agoI expect it will be allowed only if you ship the JVM and runtime with your app. (And then I suppose Apple might reject you for your app being unreasonably large.)
- stcredzero 16y agoHello!? 2005 called and wants it's misconceptions back! http://weblogs.java.net/blog/stanleyh/archive/2005/05/deployment_unde_1.html http://weblogs.java.net/blog/stanleyh/archive/2005/05/deploy... 7.5M if you want to strip.
- sudonim 16y agoThe way people describe themselves in press releases is ridiculous: "Oracle is the world’s most complete, open and integrated business software and hardware systems company. For more information about Oracle, please visit our Web site at www.oracle.com. Apple designs Macs, the best personal computers in the world, along with OS X, iLife, iWork, and professional software. Apple leads the digital music revolution with its iPods and iTunes online store. Apple is reinventing the mobile phone with its revolutionary iPhone and App Store, and has recently introduced its magical iPad which is defining the future of mobile media and computing devices."
- vdm 16y agoBlog post from Oracle's Henrik Ståhl, responsible for product strategy in the Java Platform Group, with a little more detail and comments. http://blogs.oracle.com/henrik/2010/11/oracle_and_apple_announce_openjdk_project_for_osx.html http://blogs.oracle.com/henrik/2010/11/oracle_and_apple_anno...
- samps 16y agoThis bit is hilarious: The best way for our users to always have the most up to date and secure version of Java will be to get it directly from Oracle. Contrast that with a recent quote from Bill Evans: We're happy to continue to support Flash on the Mac, and the best way for users to always have the most up to date and secure version is to download it directly from Adobe. It's like they're just toying with the tech press.
- deleted 16y ago[deleted]
- mey 16y agoOr look at something like Chrome or Microsoft who says, all these application crashes point directly back to this product, we're going to write shims and provide auto-updaters, to get this problem under control.
- chc 16y agoI don't see any contrast. How is the fact that Apple takes a consistent stance toward third-party platforms "toying with the tech press"?
- aita 16y ago"The enemy of my enemy is my friend." - proverb
- YooLi 16y ago"A penny saved is a penny earned." - proverb
- technomancy 16y ago"Well, isn't the enemy of your enemy like, your friend? Or whatever? Can't they team up?" "Not exactly. In this setting, the enemy of your enemy is still a floating, greasy, armored brain." "Well, what about his enemy? Maybe you could be friends with him." "No, because that guy is a mechanical horror in an undying battle shell. He sails from world to world in a flying tomb, serving gods who eat hope." "So, probably not." "Odds are low." http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/03/05/ http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/03/05/
- blasdel 16y agoNot quite - Jobs and Ellison are BFFs
- bradshaw1965 16y agoThis thread breaks the really admirable hacker news quality of not giving in to snark.
- BonoboBoner 16y agoAwesome, now I can get the new Air without fearing it wont run Scala.