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Does anyone ever have to justify using Java for their backend?

mrath 8y ago
mostly in the industry (finance) I work Java is the default. You need to justify and seek approvals for using anything else.
- Iwan-Zotow 8y ago
  even things like scala or kotlin?
  - johannes1234321 8y ago
    I'm not in that industry, but in general yes, even other JVM languages, since one of the reasons is that using a common language makes it simpler to move people between projects. If there is a sole kotlin developer or small group of kotlin devs and they leave it's harder to replace. Also integrating new members coming frommother teams is harder. The more architectures, libraries, coding styles, ... are standardized the higher are the chances that others can take over which is beneficial even if individual productivity might be lower.
freehunter 8y ago
Yes. I work for a company that used to build almost everything in Java and people are constantly asking why the hell we used Java for it and we're constantly apologizing and saying how quickly we're moving to a more modern solution. Before this, I worked for a company that build almost everything in Java and we had to constantly explain why things were in Java and what we were doing to move things to a more modern solution. But you don't read blog posts about those companies because they choose not to write them. The blog posts you see about the backend technologies are from companies who are proud to use those technologies and want to promote their use of that technology. The companies who use Java (mostly) are companies who aren't going to write blog posts about their backend technology choices.
- darkr 8y ago
  I used to hate Java, but years of experience later, I would gladly inherit a well maintained/architected and modern Java codebase over anything written in Python or Ruby (even a well maintained one)
  - postalrat 8y ago
    So the only thing you would trade ruby or python for is something that doesn't exist.
    - darkr 8y ago
      Oh but it does. And even when it’s not great, it’s usually a less horrendous task to refactor into something better.
      - zbentley 8y ago
        That, actually, is one of the the largest selling points of Java as a platform: when it's bad, it's not that bad, and even when it is, the tools to clean it up are better than anyone else's.
- vips7L 8y ago
  I really enjoy modern java. Its extremely performant and the ecosystem is amazing.
- purple_ducks 8y ago
  > we're moving to a more modern solution What exactly qualifies as a modern solution that Java(/jvm?) is disqualified? Syntax, library eco-system, paradigm, type system, cruft? Is "modern solution" some function of blog post count? A social blade type score for how many early-20 somethings are using it? Or is it going to be something "simplistic" & "clear" which will eventually inherit the cruft all other large languages do?
  - freehunter 8y ago
itslennysfault 8y ago
IMO yeah. I can't stand Java and for someone to sell me on building any of my backend in Java it'd have to be one hell of a compelling argument.
- icedchai 8y ago
  What is your preferred language for backend?
Dirlewanger 8y ago
It's nitpicky, but Java is just so fucking ugly and verbose. Does Kotlin extend beyond the Android ecosystem? I'd totally consider that if the case.
- Roboprog 8y ago
  Kotlin runs on the standard JVM, not just android.
- zmmmmm 8y ago
  Consider Groovy if you're interested in something Python or Ruby-like but with access to the JVM and its ecosystem. It's basically the best of of both worlds with almost none of the downsides.
amm 8y ago
It depends on the project. Java is the goto language in more conservative environments (e.g. insurance, banking, government) and I never had to justify using it there. In small shops/startups it’s different. Hype is a real thing and running your backend on “25 year old tech” often does not attract the right kind of people you need to have in this space ;^). That being said, I’ve been shipping stable and performant backends on the JVM for over 15 years and I could not be happier with the state of Java in 2019. The ecosystem is amazing. Tooling, too. Talent and jobs are available everywhere. Also, there is an active effort to modernise Javas syntax and I think it’s going into the right direction.
- Roboprog 8y ago
  I don’t understand why you got voted down. I don’t have the enthusiasm for Java I did 20 years ago (the alternate for employment in Sacramento was largely C++ back then, mind you), but I think what you said is accurate. Personally, I want to see Java retire, but downvoting people who are pointing out legitimate benefits, even if there are counter points to be made, seems rude.
athrun 8y ago
AFAIK, most of AWS is built on top of the JVM, including massive services like S3 or DynamoDB. Seems to be working well enough for them.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
olavgg 8y ago
Not at all, with Hibernate, Spring, Groovy, building web applications is much faster and more maintainable than other alternatives. I am a huge fan of the Grails framework, they do a lot of things right. As a developer I can focus on creating business value as most technical challenges are easily solved with Grails. Grails is performant and memory efficient. With Grails 4 which will be released later this year, memory usage will decrease significantly more.

mostly in the industry (finance) I work Java is the default. You need to justify and seek approvals for using anything else.

Iwan-Zotow 8y ago
even things like scala or kotlin?
- johannes1234321 8y ago
  I'm not in that industry, but in general yes, even other JVM languages, since one of the reasons is that using a common language makes it simpler to move people between projects. If there is a sole kotlin developer or small group of kotlin devs and they leave it's harder to replace. Also integrating new members coming frommother teams is harder. The more architectures, libraries, coding styles, ... are standardized the higher are the chances that others can take over which is beneficial even if individual productivity might be lower.

freehunter 8y ago

Yes. I work for a company that used to build almost everything in Java and people are constantly asking why the hell we used Java for it and we're constantly apologizing and saying how quickly we're moving to a more modern solution. Before this, I worked for a company that build almost everything in Java and we had to constantly explain why things were in Java and what we were doing to move things to a more modern solution. But you don't read blog posts about those companies because they choose not to write them. The blog posts you see about the backend technologies are from companies who are proud to use those technologies and want to promote their use of that technology. The companies who use Java (mostly) are companies who aren't going to write blog posts about their backend technology choices.

darkr 8y ago
I used to hate Java, but years of experience later, I would gladly inherit a well maintained/architected and modern Java codebase over anything written in Python or Ruby (even a well maintained one)
- postalrat 8y ago
  So the only thing you would trade ruby or python for is something that doesn't exist.
  - darkr 8y ago
    Oh but it does. And even when it’s not great, it’s usually a less horrendous task to refactor into something better.
    - zbentley 8y ago
      That, actually, is one of the the largest selling points of Java as a platform: when it's bad, it's not that bad, and even when it is, the tools to clean it up are better than anyone else's.
vips7L 8y ago
I really enjoy modern java. Its extremely performant and the ecosystem is amazing.
purple_ducks 8y ago
> we're moving to a more modern solution What exactly qualifies as a modern solution that Java(/jvm?) is disqualified? Syntax, library eco-system, paradigm, type system, cruft? Is "modern solution" some function of blog post count? A social blade type score for how many early-20 somethings are using it? Or is it going to be something "simplistic" & "clear" which will eventually inherit the cruft all other large languages do?
- freehunter 8y ago

itslennysfault 8y ago

IMO yeah. I can't stand Java and for someone to sell me on building any of my backend in Java it'd have to be one hell of a compelling argument.

icedchai 8y ago
What is your preferred language for backend?

Dirlewanger 8y ago

It's nitpicky, but Java is just so fucking ugly and verbose. Does Kotlin extend beyond the Android ecosystem? I'd totally consider that if the case.

Roboprog 8y ago
Kotlin runs on the standard JVM, not just android.
zmmmmm 8y ago
Consider Groovy if you're interested in something Python or Ruby-like but with access to the JVM and its ecosystem. It's basically the best of of both worlds with almost none of the downsides.

amm 8y ago

It depends on the project. Java is the goto language in more conservative environments (e.g. insurance, banking, government) and I never had to justify using it there. In small shops/startups it’s different. Hype is a real thing and running your backend on “25 year old tech” often does not attract the right kind of people you need to have in this space ;^). That being said, I’ve been shipping stable and performant backends on the JVM for over 15 years and I could not be happier with the state of Java in 2019. The ecosystem is amazing. Tooling, too. Talent and jobs are available everywhere. Also, there is an active effort to modernise Javas syntax and I think it’s going into the right direction.

Roboprog 8y ago
I don’t understand why you got voted down. I don’t have the enthusiasm for Java I did 20 years ago (the alternate for employment in Sacramento was largely C++ back then, mind you), but I think what you said is accurate. Personally, I want to see Java retire, but downvoting people who are pointing out legitimate benefits, even if there are counter points to be made, seems rude.

athrun 8y ago

AFAIK, most of AWS is built on top of the JVM, including massive services like S3 or DynamoDB. Seems to be working well enough for them.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

olavgg 8y ago

Not at all, with Hibernate, Spring, Groovy, building web applications is much faster and more maintainable than other alternatives. I am a huge fan of the Grails framework, they do a lot of things right. As a developer I can focus on creating business value as most technical challenges are easily solved with Grails. Grails is performant and memory efficient. With Grails 4 which will be released later this year, memory usage will decrease significantly more.