7 ms·

Here in Denmark, the story is a bit different. Many consumers here use a Dankort, which is a national debit card. The fees are low and regulated by the governme

by Fre_d 8y ago

Here in Denmark, the story is a bit different. Many consumers here use a Dankort, which is a national debit card. The fees are low and regulated by the government. It is usually combined with a Visa so that it can be used abroad as well.

notimetorelax 8y ago
It’s similar in Switzerland, almost every shop accepts PostCard
kodablah 8y ago
Are there any consumer benefits, ala rewards, for using this card?
- thefounder 8y ago
  Who pays for these "consumer benefits"? Something tells me the consumer.
  - Forbo 8y ago
    Yeah, that was my interpretation. It sounds like the "low fees" is the consumer benefit. I'd rather everyone have lower rates than a select few being able to "game the system".
  - kodablah 8y ago
    Sure. The consumers do (at the end of the day), hence the fees. We also pay for the costs borne by them to resolve disputes, handle those that don't pay back, etc. Also hence the fees.
    - krn 8y ago
      In Europe, most cards are debit cards, not credit cards. In some countries and places, credit cards are not even accepted because of the possibility of a chargeback and much higher processing fees. In essence, many people here treat Visa / MasterCard as just "electronic cash", and therefore spend only the money they actually have. In my own EU country, only about 1% of private bank customers own a credit card. These are usually the wealthiest people in the country, who have no problems paying the balance back on time. The credit cards themselves provide very few benefits apart from the international health insurance for the entire family, and 0% fee for up to 45 days. The reward programs are almost non-existent. Just like the general idea of spending the money one doesn't have. It might sound like a very conservative society, but people here are a way more relaxed about their personal finances than in the US. Instead of trying to earn reward points, they try to plan their expenses upfront, and focus on staying debt-free as much as they can. That's because most Europeans have stable jobs with stable salaries which can neither grow, nor decline by a lot. Therefore, almost nobody expects to become very rich or very poor, and lives accordingly.
      - kodablah 8y ago
        Hrmm, many people in other areas only spend money on credit cards they actually have too. I was also curious about the dispute resolution feature of the card itself. It is my primary reason for a CC (rewards are just a perk) so I don't have to rely on government institutions with limited incentive to go to bat for me when the card acceptor did me wrong.
        krn 8y ago
        I never heard of anyone disputing his Visa / MasterCard payment in my country. That's probably because people pay online only at a very limited number of places they trust, and it's easier to solve issues with the local merchants directly. Another reason might be, that many online payments are made via direct bank tranfers / SEPA, which can be both, fee-free and instant, across the entire EU. Essentially, everything is based on trust. Nobody puts his debit / credit card details into a form of a website he never heard before, and nobody risks his business reputation if he has managed to earn it.
        nightski 8y ago
        It's pretty short sighted to think you can trust your "debit" card number with any online merchant nowadays. I wouldn't shop online, or even at physical stores for that matter without the safety net a credit card provides. I don't mind paying the extra bit on top for this protection (which is negligible due to rewards).
        DoctorOetker 8y ago
        what?? what makes you think debit cards are less safe than credit cards? as far as I know here in EU all debit cards are smart cards with PIN code protection, what exactly is the unsafe part? are you confusing debit cards with magstripe cards?
        SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
        I know that with credit cards money lost is the credit card's company, and there's a fair number of protections to keep consumers from paying that bill in the case of fraud, but with a debit card money lost would be directly from a bank account, and there seems to be less. Is there more fraud protection for bank cards in the EU?
  - pisarzp 8y ago
    Actually, it's merchants. EU drastically capped interchange fees a few years ago. The premise was that it will lower costs for merchants and effectively lower costs for consumers. However, most of the savings were kept by merchants, especially larger ones. Some EU study confirming that: https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/news-insights/insight/18-months-impact-interchange-fee-regulation-european-union-cards-market https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/news-insights/insight...
    - loeg 8y ago
      Merchants pass-through the fees to consumers. If they charge the same price to consumers using rewards cards and cash (common in the US), consumers using cash or debit cards subsidize credit cards.
      - cronix 8y ago
        I'm pretty sure you're subsidizing the debit card users if using cash, too. They use the same networks as credit cards (visa/mastercard networks). I remember when debit cards first came out in the US. There was actually a 1-2% surcharge that most merchants were charging (especially smaller mom/pop type stores) to use debits - because it cost them to use the payment system just like credit cards. Eventually the merchants just baked the processing fees into the prices of all goods because most transactions are done with cards. Even checks now are converted to an "ACH debit" at the checkstand and the funds come out of your account immediately. You can't float checks anymore, not that that was ever a good idea anyway.
        loeg 8y ago
        > I'm pretty sure you're subsidizing the debit card users if using cash, too. Correct. > Even checks now are converted to an "ACH debit" at the checkstand and the funds come out of your account immediately. You can't float checks anymore, not that that was ever a good idea anyway. I don't know what checkstands are but I've never seen a check immediately pull from my account. (Just for example, I wrote a check Saturday and I'm sure the vendor deposited it immediately and it still hasn't posted to my account three days later.) In fact, that would be great, IMO. Instead anyone who wants immediate payment without the risk of a check not clearing (landlord first month's rent, or mortgage, or like a car) will demand a cashier's check or money order or wire, all of which are associated with an additional fee of $10-25. (Or will pull your credit to cover the float.)
  - Tsubasachan 8y ago
    Using a debit card for any transaction is free, which is why cash is going the way of the dodo. I don't use a CC in Europe so I can't comment on how expensive those are here. As for who is paying for it? Once you have a payment system set up its really not that expensive to maintain it. Driving around armoured vans with money is actually more hassle.
- gpvos 8y ago
  Of course not. On the other hand, the costs are near-zero.
- blattimwind 8y ago
  You can either have low fees and near-universal acceptance, or high fees and not-so-universal acceptance plus "consumer benefits". To me it seems fairly clear which one is preferable.
  - kodablah 8y ago
    I am familiar w/ (relatively) high fees and near-universal acceptance so I'm not sure your dichotomy holds. Either way, I do appreciate the features my card providers offer me as a buffer between my bank and the merchant. Don't have to completely trust merchants or the government, can leverage the escrow the card provides to be on my side since I pay them and can leave them so easily. I agree, it is fairly clear which one is preferable.
krn 8y ago
And in Germany it's Girocard[1]. You couldn't even buy a metro ticket with a Visa / MasterCard in Berlin a few years ago. And maybe you still can't. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girocard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girocard
- detaro 8y ago
  You actually can buy tickets with credit cards since summer 2017! (it positively surprised me when I checked for visiting friends a while back)
  - krn 8y ago
    Thanks, that's great news. My last visit was in May 2017. And for 10 years between 2007-2017 I pretty much carried only cash in Berlin. The cardless life was very strange in the beginning, but I learnt to love the absolute sense of freedom and privacy the lack of any digital records of my day-to-day life provided me. I even stopped carrying my smartphone when I didn't need it. It was like back to 1990s.
- interfixus 8y ago
  German supermarket chain Aldi was, until not too many years ago, one of the last places in Denmark which didn't take Visa or Mastercard, only the above mentioned Dankort (which I personally abhor, like everything else coming out of its controlling company, Nets).
- smsm42 8y ago
  I was astonished when I was in Berlin couple of years ago how many places wouldn't accept credit cards. I was used to the US where I could get around for months without carrying any cash, and there everybody was refusing to deal with CCs. And I arrived on week-end, means I couldn't just go to a bank to change cash (there were probably still places to do it, but I didn't know where they were...). Had to borrow cash from local friends to get by until the workweek started. No idea why Berlin is so reluctant to deal with credit cards.
  - 8y ago
acifani 8y ago
Same in Italy, actually. Every POS accepts Bancomat[1], which is the standard debit circuit over here. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bancomat_(debit_card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bancomat_(debit_card)
olejorgenb 8y ago
Same in Norway (Bank axept) The individual banks seems to set the fees (card owner is charged) Most banks charge a yearly fee (~25$) (free transactions), though some banks charge as much as 1NOK ($0.12) per transaction on top of that.
gst 8y ago
Those proprietary cards in most of the European countries have definitely advantages, but are also a big problem: In lots of European countries merchants often only accept the country's own proprietary debit card, but no debit/credit cards from other European countries. For example in Denmark: "Due to the higher fees charged by banks for the use of non-Danish issued cards (that consist of foreign card network interchange fees plus Danish banks own fees), many Danish merchants only accept Dankort and Danish-issued credit cards, but not foreign cards." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dankort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dankort) I really hope that the EU adds some regulation that forces merchants to accept debit/card cards from other EU member states on an equal basis. Especially in combination with the fact that in some cases only electronic payments are accepted, which makes it pretty much impossible for anyone to pay without a national bank account. The EU already solved (or at least mitigated) the issues with roaming in mobile networks. Doing the same for payments is the next logical step.

by Fre_d 8y ago

notimetorelax 8y ago

It’s similar in Switzerland, almost every shop accepts PostCard

kodablah 8y ago

Are there any consumer benefits, ala rewards, for using this card?

thefounder 8y ago
Who pays for these "consumer benefits"? Something tells me the consumer.
- Forbo 8y ago
  Yeah, that was my interpretation. It sounds like the "low fees" is the consumer benefit. I'd rather everyone have lower rates than a select few being able to "game the system".
- kodablah 8y ago
  Sure. The consumers do (at the end of the day), hence the fees. We also pay for the costs borne by them to resolve disputes, handle those that don't pay back, etc. Also hence the fees.
  - krn 8y ago
    In Europe, most cards are debit cards, not credit cards. In some countries and places, credit cards are not even accepted because of the possibility of a chargeback and much higher processing fees. In essence, many people here treat Visa / MasterCard as just "electronic cash", and therefore spend only the money they actually have. In my own EU country, only about 1% of private bank customers own a credit card. These are usually the wealthiest people in the country, who have no problems paying the balance back on time. The credit cards themselves provide very few benefits apart from the international health insurance for the entire family, and 0% fee for up to 45 days. The reward programs are almost non-existent. Just like the general idea of spending the money one doesn't have. It might sound like a very conservative society, but people here are a way more relaxed about their personal finances than in the US. Instead of trying to earn reward points, they try to plan their expenses upfront, and focus on staying debt-free as much as they can. That's because most Europeans have stable jobs with stable salaries which can neither grow, nor decline by a lot. Therefore, almost nobody expects to become very rich or very poor, and lives accordingly.
    - kodablah 8y ago
      Hrmm, many people in other areas only spend money on credit cards they actually have too. I was also curious about the dispute resolution feature of the card itself. It is my primary reason for a CC (rewards are just a perk) so I don't have to rely on government institutions with limited incentive to go to bat for me when the card acceptor did me wrong.
      - krn 8y ago
        I never heard of anyone disputing his Visa / MasterCard payment in my country. That's probably because people pay online only at a very limited number of places they trust, and it's easier to solve issues with the local merchants directly. Another reason might be, that many online payments are made via direct bank tranfers / SEPA, which can be both, fee-free and instant, across the entire EU. Essentially, everything is based on trust. Nobody puts his debit / credit card details into a form of a website he never heard before, and nobody risks his business reputation if he has managed to earn it.
        nightski 8y ago
        It's pretty short sighted to think you can trust your "debit" card number with any online merchant nowadays. I wouldn't shop online, or even at physical stores for that matter without the safety net a credit card provides. I don't mind paying the extra bit on top for this protection (which is negligible due to rewards).
        DoctorOetker 8y ago
        what?? what makes you think debit cards are less safe than credit cards? as far as I know here in EU all debit cards are smart cards with PIN code protection, what exactly is the unsafe part? are you confusing debit cards with magstripe cards?
        SketchySeaBeast 8y ago
        I know that with credit cards money lost is the credit card's company, and there's a fair number of protections to keep consumers from paying that bill in the case of fraud, but with a debit card money lost would be directly from a bank account, and there seems to be less. Is there more fraud protection for bank cards in the EU?
- pisarzp 8y ago
  Actually, it's merchants. EU drastically capped interchange fees a few years ago. The premise was that it will lower costs for merchants and effectively lower costs for consumers. However, most of the savings were kept by merchants, especially larger ones. Some EU study confirming that: https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/news-insights/insight/18-months-impact-interchange-fee-regulation-european-union-cards-market https://www.europeanpaymentscouncil.eu/news-insights/insight...
  - loeg 8y ago
    Merchants pass-through the fees to consumers. If they charge the same price to consumers using rewards cards and cash (common in the US), consumers using cash or debit cards subsidize credit cards.
    - cronix 8y ago
      I'm pretty sure you're subsidizing the debit card users if using cash, too. They use the same networks as credit cards (visa/mastercard networks). I remember when debit cards first came out in the US. There was actually a 1-2% surcharge that most merchants were charging (especially smaller mom/pop type stores) to use debits - because it cost them to use the payment system just like credit cards. Eventually the merchants just baked the processing fees into the prices of all goods because most transactions are done with cards. Even checks now are converted to an "ACH debit" at the checkstand and the funds come out of your account immediately. You can't float checks anymore, not that that was ever a good idea anyway.
      - loeg 8y ago
        > I'm pretty sure you're subsidizing the debit card users if using cash, too. Correct. > Even checks now are converted to an "ACH debit" at the checkstand and the funds come out of your account immediately. You can't float checks anymore, not that that was ever a good idea anyway. I don't know what checkstands are but I've never seen a check immediately pull from my account. (Just for example, I wrote a check Saturday and I'm sure the vendor deposited it immediately and it still hasn't posted to my account three days later.) In fact, that would be great, IMO. Instead anyone who wants immediate payment without the risk of a check not clearing (landlord first month's rent, or mortgage, or like a car) will demand a cashier's check or money order or wire, all of which are associated with an additional fee of $10-25. (Or will pull your credit to cover the float.)
- Tsubasachan 8y ago
  Using a debit card for any transaction is free, which is why cash is going the way of the dodo. I don't use a CC in Europe so I can't comment on how expensive those are here. As for who is paying for it? Once you have a payment system set up its really not that expensive to maintain it. Driving around armoured vans with money is actually more hassle.
gpvos 8y ago
Of course not. On the other hand, the costs are near-zero.
blattimwind 8y ago
You can either have low fees and near-universal acceptance, or high fees and not-so-universal acceptance plus "consumer benefits". To me it seems fairly clear which one is preferable.
- kodablah 8y ago
  I am familiar w/ (relatively) high fees and near-universal acceptance so I'm not sure your dichotomy holds. Either way, I do appreciate the features my card providers offer me as a buffer between my bank and the merchant. Don't have to completely trust merchants or the government, can leverage the escrow the card provides to be on my side since I pay them and can leave them so easily. I agree, it is fairly clear which one is preferable.

krn 8y ago

And in Germany it's Girocard[1]. You couldn't even buy a metro ticket with a Visa / MasterCard in Berlin a few years ago. And maybe you still can't. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girocard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Girocard

detaro 8y ago
You actually can buy tickets with credit cards since summer 2017! (it positively surprised me when I checked for visiting friends a while back)
- krn 8y ago
  Thanks, that's great news. My last visit was in May 2017. And for 10 years between 2007-2017 I pretty much carried only cash in Berlin. The cardless life was very strange in the beginning, but I learnt to love the absolute sense of freedom and privacy the lack of any digital records of my day-to-day life provided me. I even stopped carrying my smartphone when I didn't need it. It was like back to 1990s.
interfixus 8y ago
German supermarket chain Aldi was, until not too many years ago, one of the last places in Denmark which didn't take Visa or Mastercard, only the above mentioned Dankort (which I personally abhor, like everything else coming out of its controlling company, Nets).
smsm42 8y ago
I was astonished when I was in Berlin couple of years ago how many places wouldn't accept credit cards. I was used to the US where I could get around for months without carrying any cash, and there everybody was refusing to deal with CCs. And I arrived on week-end, means I couldn't just go to a bank to change cash (there were probably still places to do it, but I didn't know where they were...). Had to borrow cash from local friends to get by until the workweek started. No idea why Berlin is so reluctant to deal with credit cards.
- 8y ago

acifani 8y ago

Same in Italy, actually. Every POS accepts Bancomat[1], which is the standard debit circuit over here. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bancomat_(debit_card) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bancomat_(debit_card)

olejorgenb 8y ago

Same in Norway (Bank axept) The individual banks seems to set the fees (card owner is charged) Most banks charge a yearly fee (~25$) (free transactions), though some banks charge as much as 1NOK ($0.12) per transaction on top of that.

gst 8y ago

Those proprietary cards in most of the European countries have definitely advantages, but are also a big problem: In lots of European countries merchants often only accept the country's own proprietary debit card, but no debit/credit cards from other European countries. For example in Denmark: "Due to the higher fees charged by banks for the use of non-Danish issued cards (that consist of foreign card network interchange fees plus Danish banks own fees), many Danish merchants only accept Dankort and Danish-issued credit cards, but not foreign cards." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dankort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dankort) I really hope that the EU adds some regulation that forces merchants to accept debit/card cards from other EU member states on an equal basis. Especially in combination with the fact that in some cases only electronic payments are accepted, which makes it pretty much impossible for anyone to pay without a national bank account. The EU already solved (or at least mitigated) the issues with roaming in mobile networks. Doing the same for payments is the next logical step.