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It reminds me of their sudden decision to drop their XServe line, with no explanation or hint of follow-up. We have a guy that has specialized in "enterprise-y

It reminds me of their sudden decision to drop their XServe line, with no explanation or hint of follow-up. We have a guy that has specialized in "enterprise-y" Apple deployments. We have a few XServes here and the default laptop people get is a MacBook. Essentially, years of building domain expertise on this platform have been wiped from his resume, and he's now terrified for his career; he's decided to learn a certain open-source programming language, one which is fairly friendly to Macs and good for scripting (so he can learn while having a practical use, since he's done a lot of bash scripting) as well as enjoying some popularity for web application development. He wants to hedge if Apple doesn't create an analogous replacement. Jobs is capricious and doesn't tip his hand; the article's lesson of not basing anything on his (or any other person's or company's) whims is a pretty good one.

CamperBob 16y ago
I've been modded down twice on HN for predicting that the whole Macintosh line is going to meet the same fate, and sooner than many would prefer. The success of the iOS consumer platforms has brought Apple to a fork in the road, and there are a few signs -- such as the quiet excision of the 'Computer' part of 'Apple Computer' -- that suggest they can read a map. Soooo... may as well make it three times.
- Luyt 16y ago
  Well, let me upvoted you for a change ;-) But what makes you think the Macintosh line will be abandoned by Apple? Mere aversion to product diversification? They discontinued the Xserve ("nobody buys the things"), but I have the impression that MacBooks and iMacs are selling quite well.
  - CamperBob 16y ago
    I think it'll eventually make sense for them to focus on non-computer products because those are the ones that are selling insanely well. The local Apple stores are so full of customers and browsers that I'm surprised they haven't had problems with the fire marshal, and it isn't because people are mobbing the Mac displays. Computers, even Macs, are heavy on support costs and light on profit margins. A common argument is "Well, what do you think people are using to develop for all those iPhones, iPods, and iPads?" The answer to that one is, "What do you think people are using to develop for XBox 360s and PS3s?" It's true that you need a Mac to write iOS apps, but that's an arbitrary corporate policy, and not an inherent requirement.
    - smiler 16y ago
      They do have problems with customer numbers in stores and a fire limits. At my closest apple store on a saturday there is often a queue to get into the store with security controlling the numbers. It is one of the small store designs though
- 1337p337 16y ago
  I think it's a valid prediction, but I don't think they'd accept programmers for Apple products using non-Apple products; I don't know what they'd do. But their servers are all (I hear) XServes, and they basically eat their own dog-food, so I'd expect a follow-up of some sort. Without MacBook Pros, I don't know how they'd develop new versions of iOS. Systems coding on iPads? Would they actually use Linux? Neither seems likely, but I wouldn't put it past them to beef up iOS to the point that their devs are using it, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if their new server line were to be based on 16-core ARMs running some form of iOS.
  - CamperBob 16y ago
    I think it's a valid prediction, but I don't think they'd accept programmers for Apple products using non-Apple products; I don't know what they'd do. Sony doesn't mind people using PCs to develop for the PS3, and game development is murderously complex compared to anything developed for iOS either inside or outside Apple. But their servers are all (I hear) XServes, and they basically eat their own dog-food, so I'd expect a follow-up of some sort. You could be right but if there's a case for Apple to be in the server business, I sure don't see it.
- neild 16y ago
  Macs accounted for 27% of Apple's net sales in FY '10. Mac sales were up 26% over the previous year. In comparison, iPods accounted for 13% of net sales and, and grew only 2% over the previous year. Why, precisely, do you expect Apple to just throw away 25% of their business?
  - CamperBob 16y ago
    Think of it this way. Imagine that Apple just came out of nowhere and released the iPhone, iPad, and iPod line. Do you think their next move would be to launch a line of proprietary computers? If you pitched that idea to Jobs, you'd probably be looking for work the next day. It would be that dumb.
    - kiiski 16y ago
      Maybe or maybe not, but that doesn't matter. They already sell computers and have lots of customers who want to buy them. I don't know much about business, but I would still have to say that it sounds just stupid to suddenly stop selling them.
    - jonknee 16y ago
      What would they write the iOS apps with? Mac OS X is critical to all of Apple's products.
      - CamperBob 16y ago
        See my other point. Does Sony have to build a line of proprietary PCs so that people can develop for the PS3?
        blasdel 16y ago
        Of course they do, the most recent one is called the "PlayStation 3 Reference Tool", and costs about $10k to a qualified developer.
        16y ago
- loewenskind 16y ago
  You keep getting downvoted because it's unsubstantiated nonsense that defies logical expectations. Why would Mac kill their own development platform? Further, look Google as they thrash around desperate to diversify their revenue stream. Do you think it's sensible for Mac to go the opposite direction and pile all their eggs in one basket? Not to mention all the effort that went into creating this new unibody form factor. Should they just throw away all the resources they've put into doing that?
  - zppx 16y ago
    Well, there was an effort in developing the Xserve line as well, apparently it was no problem for Apple to throw the entire Xserve effort in the trash bin. I think Apple will put less emphasis on the Mac in the next years, simplifying the line and reducing the products in the market, not so fast as he wishes, and this will be a trend in the entire industry, not only Apple. But that's my opinion and not a detailed analysis.
    - pillsy 16y ago
      They ditched the XServe because people just weren't buying them in any noticeable quantities. Apple sells a lot more Macs now then back when Macs were pretty all Apple made, so why would they decide to leave all that money on the table?
      - matwood 16y ago
        It's a chicken and the egg thing. People weren't buying them because they were not competitive with other rack servers anymore. By using your logic Apple could just not update the MacPro for a few years and then pull line because 'people weren't buying them.' Apple created the people not buying them situation though.
      - Tamerlin 16y ago
        I'm actually a little surprised that they took this long to make the decision to kill off the XServe. Back during the G5 crash-and-burn they stopped publishing separate XServe sales data, merging it into a collective "G5" sales bin, presumably to hide how drastically and quickly G5 sales tailed off after the initial surge of sales, followed by a lot of disappointment when their customers realized that their performance wasn't anywhere near where Apple claimed that it was.
- aepstein 16y ago
  And how do you expect iOS devs to create their mobile apps?
  - CamperBob 16y ago
    How does Sony expect PS3 devs to create their games? Even though you can't plug a couple of monitors and a keyboard into a PS3 and run emacs and GCC on them, there are still plenty of "apps" for game consoles.
- dreyfiz 16y ago
  At the Back to the Mac event, Tim Cook pointed out that Apple's Mac business, if spun off into its own company, would be #110 on the Fortune 500. The Mac isn't going anywhere.
  - CamperBob 16y ago
    Spinning it off into its own company might actually make a lot of sense. Anyone who doesn't think there's a huge, morale-killing war brewing inside Apple between the old-guard Mac cult and the young iOS Turks hasn't spent time around any large companies.
    - dreyfiz 16y ago
      Apple isn't your typical BigCo though. Your predictions about the existence of bureaucratic infighting and turf politics ignore Apple's nature. First, Apple is run more like an enormous startup. Second, iOS and OS X share a LOT of engineers. You are arguing that Apple's engineers are at war with themselves. Third, Steve wouldn't stand for it.
      - commandar 16y ago
        >First, Apple is run more like an enormous startup. So? There were turf-wars and in-fighting between product teams when Apple actually was a startup. >Third, Steve wouldn't stand for it. Most accounts I've heard are that Steve was a driving force in that early in-fighting. Of course, he's 25 years older and has probably matured some, but I don't know that I agree with the assessment that he wouldn't tolerate it.
Huppie 16y ago
It's a bit off-topic but if I remember correctly they silently introduced a 'Server' version of the Mac Pro. Running the same X-Server software. Basically all that has changed is the form-factor, which isn't a rackmount anymore, but instead a tower model. 'Enterprise-y' Apple deployments will probably still be an option, just not in a rack.
- rcoder 16y ago
  sigh Not to continue this off-topic digression too much further, but a Mac Pro running OS X Server is in no way a replacement for an "enterprise" XServe deployment. For a full explanation, see this TidBITS article: http://db.tidbits.com/article/11735 http://db.tidbits.com/article/11735 tl;dr version: The Mac Pro takes up 4x the rack space and lacks hot-swappable power supplies and drive bays, making it an awful fit for most 24x7 server environments.
dnsworks 16y ago
Jobs isn't capricious, he's an asshole. I have two friends who both had the misfortunate position of being Jobs' personal IT bitch at Apple. He fired my one friend, and I quote, "because I'm tired of struggling to understand your gimpy voice". Jobs is added proof to the argument that nice guys finish last.
- webXL 16y ago
  I don't doubt that jobs is an asshole from time to time. You kinda have to be to get where Apple is today, from where they were. But unless you were present at the firing of your friend, or he recorded it, I don't think it's 100% fair to quote Jobs, especially out of context. Just because he can be an asshole at times, doesn't mean we get to slander and spread hearsay. Your friend wasn't doing what his boss wanted. The boss said something mean for whatever reason. Anyone in a long term relationship has said something mean. So if an employee isn't the right fit for the company, chances are, every once in a while, something mean will be uttered when they are canned. You're making to much out of it. Unless that's the typical way Jobs fires someone. Then he truly is an asshole.
  - astine 16y ago
    "Your friend wasn't doing what his boss wanted. The boss said something mean for whatever reason. " Are you sure? For all we know, Jobs really did fire him for his voice.
    - webXL 16y ago
      Fine. He was fired for not having the magic ability to change his voice in order to please his asshole boss. My only point was that he shouldn't be quoting someone unless it's first-hand. We have no way to verify it.
      - vetinari 16y ago
        We have no means to verify 99.99% quotes in the news, yet we assume they are true.
grammaton 16y ago
This is just one of the reasons for my growing distaste for a platform I was once quite fond of - the frankly mystifying decisions with regard to what features and products stay and go. Apple seems to be embracing the "less is more" ethos more and more as time goes by - which is good as far as it goes, but sometimes I think they're taking it too far. Certainly, as this article shows, they've already taken it to an extreme where communicating with the outside world is concerned.
- commandar 16y ago
  >Certainly, as this article shows, they've already taken it to an extreme where communicating with the outside world is concerned. And this is probably the biggest reason why Apple continues to be a minor blip on the enterprise market.
akronim 16y ago
Sounds like he's perfectly positioned to help people transition from X-Serves to whatever gives the best migration path.

CamperBob 16y ago

I've been modded down twice on HN for predicting that the whole Macintosh line is going to meet the same fate, and sooner than many would prefer. The success of the iOS consumer platforms has brought Apple to a fork in the road, and there are a few signs -- such as the quiet excision of the 'Computer' part of 'Apple Computer' -- that suggest they can read a map. Soooo... may as well make it three times.

Luyt 16y ago
Well, let me upvoted you for a change ;-) But what makes you think the Macintosh line will be abandoned by Apple? Mere aversion to product diversification? They discontinued the Xserve ("nobody buys the things"), but I have the impression that MacBooks and iMacs are selling quite well.
- CamperBob 16y ago
  I think it'll eventually make sense for them to focus on non-computer products because those are the ones that are selling insanely well. The local Apple stores are so full of customers and browsers that I'm surprised they haven't had problems with the fire marshal, and it isn't because people are mobbing the Mac displays. Computers, even Macs, are heavy on support costs and light on profit margins. A common argument is "Well, what do you think people are using to develop for all those iPhones, iPods, and iPads?" The answer to that one is, "What do you think people are using to develop for XBox 360s and PS3s?" It's true that you need a Mac to write iOS apps, but that's an arbitrary corporate policy, and not an inherent requirement.
  - smiler 16y ago
    They do have problems with customer numbers in stores and a fire limits. At my closest apple store on a saturday there is often a queue to get into the store with security controlling the numbers. It is one of the small store designs though
1337p337 16y ago
I think it's a valid prediction, but I don't think they'd accept programmers for Apple products using non-Apple products; I don't know what they'd do. But their servers are all (I hear) XServes, and they basically eat their own dog-food, so I'd expect a follow-up of some sort. Without MacBook Pros, I don't know how they'd develop new versions of iOS. Systems coding on iPads? Would they actually use Linux? Neither seems likely, but I wouldn't put it past them to beef up iOS to the point that their devs are using it, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if their new server line were to be based on 16-core ARMs running some form of iOS.
- CamperBob 16y ago
  I think it's a valid prediction, but I don't think they'd accept programmers for Apple products using non-Apple products; I don't know what they'd do. Sony doesn't mind people using PCs to develop for the PS3, and game development is murderously complex compared to anything developed for iOS either inside or outside Apple. But their servers are all (I hear) XServes, and they basically eat their own dog-food, so I'd expect a follow-up of some sort. You could be right but if there's a case for Apple to be in the server business, I sure don't see it.
neild 16y ago
Macs accounted for 27% of Apple's net sales in FY '10. Mac sales were up 26% over the previous year. In comparison, iPods accounted for 13% of net sales and, and grew only 2% over the previous year. Why, precisely, do you expect Apple to just throw away 25% of their business?
- CamperBob 16y ago
  Think of it this way. Imagine that Apple just came out of nowhere and released the iPhone, iPad, and iPod line. Do you think their next move would be to launch a line of proprietary computers? If you pitched that idea to Jobs, you'd probably be looking for work the next day. It would be that dumb.
  - kiiski 16y ago
    Maybe or maybe not, but that doesn't matter. They already sell computers and have lots of customers who want to buy them. I don't know much about business, but I would still have to say that it sounds just stupid to suddenly stop selling them.
  - jonknee 16y ago
    What would they write the iOS apps with? Mac OS X is critical to all of Apple's products.
    - CamperBob 16y ago
      See my other point. Does Sony have to build a line of proprietary PCs so that people can develop for the PS3?
      - blasdel 16y ago
        Of course they do, the most recent one is called the "PlayStation 3 Reference Tool", and costs about $10k to a qualified developer.
        16y ago
loewenskind 16y ago
You keep getting downvoted because it's unsubstantiated nonsense that defies logical expectations. Why would Mac kill their own development platform? Further, look Google as they thrash around desperate to diversify their revenue stream. Do you think it's sensible for Mac to go the opposite direction and pile all their eggs in one basket? Not to mention all the effort that went into creating this new unibody form factor. Should they just throw away all the resources they've put into doing that?
- zppx 16y ago
  Well, there was an effort in developing the Xserve line as well, apparently it was no problem for Apple to throw the entire Xserve effort in the trash bin. I think Apple will put less emphasis on the Mac in the next years, simplifying the line and reducing the products in the market, not so fast as he wishes, and this will be a trend in the entire industry, not only Apple. But that's my opinion and not a detailed analysis.
  - pillsy 16y ago
    They ditched the XServe because people just weren't buying them in any noticeable quantities. Apple sells a lot more Macs now then back when Macs were pretty all Apple made, so why would they decide to leave all that money on the table?
    - matwood 16y ago
      It's a chicken and the egg thing. People weren't buying them because they were not competitive with other rack servers anymore. By using your logic Apple could just not update the MacPro for a few years and then pull line because 'people weren't buying them.' Apple created the people not buying them situation though.
    - Tamerlin 16y ago
      I'm actually a little surprised that they took this long to make the decision to kill off the XServe. Back during the G5 crash-and-burn they stopped publishing separate XServe sales data, merging it into a collective "G5" sales bin, presumably to hide how drastically and quickly G5 sales tailed off after the initial surge of sales, followed by a lot of disappointment when their customers realized that their performance wasn't anywhere near where Apple claimed that it was.
aepstein 16y ago
And how do you expect iOS devs to create their mobile apps?
- CamperBob 16y ago
  How does Sony expect PS3 devs to create their games? Even though you can't plug a couple of monitors and a keyboard into a PS3 and run emacs and GCC on them, there are still plenty of "apps" for game consoles.
dreyfiz 16y ago
At the Back to the Mac event, Tim Cook pointed out that Apple's Mac business, if spun off into its own company, would be #110 on the Fortune 500. The Mac isn't going anywhere.
- CamperBob 16y ago
  Spinning it off into its own company might actually make a lot of sense. Anyone who doesn't think there's a huge, morale-killing war brewing inside Apple between the old-guard Mac cult and the young iOS Turks hasn't spent time around any large companies.
  - dreyfiz 16y ago
    Apple isn't your typical BigCo though. Your predictions about the existence of bureaucratic infighting and turf politics ignore Apple's nature. First, Apple is run more like an enormous startup. Second, iOS and OS X share a LOT of engineers. You are arguing that Apple's engineers are at war with themselves. Third, Steve wouldn't stand for it.
    - commandar 16y ago
      >First, Apple is run more like an enormous startup. So? There were turf-wars and in-fighting between product teams when Apple actually was a startup. >Third, Steve wouldn't stand for it. Most accounts I've heard are that Steve was a driving force in that early in-fighting. Of course, he's 25 years older and has probably matured some, but I don't know that I agree with the assessment that he wouldn't tolerate it.

Huppie 16y ago

It's a bit off-topic but if I remember correctly they silently introduced a 'Server' version of the Mac Pro. Running the same X-Server software. Basically all that has changed is the form-factor, which isn't a rackmount anymore, but instead a tower model. 'Enterprise-y' Apple deployments will probably still be an option, just not in a rack.

rcoder 16y ago
sigh Not to continue this off-topic digression too much further, but a Mac Pro running OS X Server is in no way a replacement for an "enterprise" XServe deployment. For a full explanation, see this TidBITS article: http://db.tidbits.com/article/11735 http://db.tidbits.com/article/11735 tl;dr version: The Mac Pro takes up 4x the rack space and lacks hot-swappable power supplies and drive bays, making it an awful fit for most 24x7 server environments.

dnsworks 16y ago

Jobs isn't capricious, he's an asshole. I have two friends who both had the misfortunate position of being Jobs' personal IT bitch at Apple. He fired my one friend, and I quote, "because I'm tired of struggling to understand your gimpy voice". Jobs is added proof to the argument that nice guys finish last.

webXL 16y ago
I don't doubt that jobs is an asshole from time to time. You kinda have to be to get where Apple is today, from where they were. But unless you were present at the firing of your friend, or he recorded it, I don't think it's 100% fair to quote Jobs, especially out of context. Just because he can be an asshole at times, doesn't mean we get to slander and spread hearsay. Your friend wasn't doing what his boss wanted. The boss said something mean for whatever reason. Anyone in a long term relationship has said something mean. So if an employee isn't the right fit for the company, chances are, every once in a while, something mean will be uttered when they are canned. You're making to much out of it. Unless that's the typical way Jobs fires someone. Then he truly is an asshole.
- astine 16y ago
  "Your friend wasn't doing what his boss wanted. The boss said something mean for whatever reason. " Are you sure? For all we know, Jobs really did fire him for his voice.
  - webXL 16y ago
    Fine. He was fired for not having the magic ability to change his voice in order to please his asshole boss. My only point was that he shouldn't be quoting someone unless it's first-hand. We have no way to verify it.
    - vetinari 16y ago
      We have no means to verify 99.99% quotes in the news, yet we assume they are true.

grammaton 16y ago

This is just one of the reasons for my growing distaste for a platform I was once quite fond of - the frankly mystifying decisions with regard to what features and products stay and go. Apple seems to be embracing the "less is more" ethos more and more as time goes by - which is good as far as it goes, but sometimes I think they're taking it too far. Certainly, as this article shows, they've already taken it to an extreme where communicating with the outside world is concerned.

commandar 16y ago
>Certainly, as this article shows, they've already taken it to an extreme where communicating with the outside world is concerned. And this is probably the biggest reason why Apple continues to be a minor blip on the enterprise market.

akronim 16y ago

Sounds like he's perfectly positioned to help people transition from X-Serves to whatever gives the best migration path.