4 ms·

Also, their claim that HTTPS doesn’t hide the hosts that you are visiting is about to not be true. Encrypted SNI is now part of the TLS 1.3 RFC, so HTTPS will a

Also, their claim that HTTPS doesn’t hide the hosts that you are visiting is about to not be true. Encrypted SNI is now part of the TLS 1.3 RFC, so HTTPS will actually hide one’s internet browsing habits quite well. The only holes in privacy left on the web’s stack are in DNS.

zamadatix 8y ago
I bet DoHTTPS/DoTLS has more penetration than ESNI. Neither are widely implemented though, which is the important part.
- da_chicken 8y ago
  Yeah, but not being implemented now doesn't mean that they never will be. Migrating/implementing now will mean that the mirrors will automatically support it once the features are in place and the clients and servers can agree on the improved privacy feature sets.
ec109685 8y ago
For sni to be effective, you need to be hitting hosts that serve more than one domain. Otherwise, you can just reverse map the ip.
- y4mi 8y ago
  Most of my severs don't report the actual service dns back on a reverse lookup. It's generally nodeXX.some.fqdn or clusterXX or lbXX
  - jedberg 8y ago
    Yes but if I want to specifically look for traffic to the Debian mirrors, I can use DNS to build a list of the IPs and then see if you're connecting to one of them.
  - shittyadmin 8y ago
    Doesn't really matter either way - there's a bunch of crawlers and scanners out there such that you can pretty much Google any IP and find a list of sites that are hosted on it.
    - dcbadacd 8y ago
      Fun fact, most of those break if you just close the connection when the client doesn't support SNI.
      - shittyadmin 8y ago
        Not quote the ones I was referring to - many services just look at DNS and get the A record for every domain then offer reverse lookup - complete lists of domains are purchasable for all major TLDs. The only defense to this would be to host your content on a subdomain. DNSlytics, DomainTools, W3Advisor and others offer this.
        Ayesh 8y ago
        It's also easy to just scan a whole range (say, top 1m Alexa domains) and log the IP. You can scan 1m sites on a cheap $5 VPS nowadays.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    Most services report what they are, and even the server often, when you connect. If you connect to an IP and it's serving a website then I don't know why you'd care that reverse-lookup isn't configured correctly, you're not hiding anything?
  - admax88q 8y ago
    Its feasible to build a reverse lookup table of all registered domain names.
progval 8y ago
By host, they probably mean the IP address.
toast0 8y ago
Can you point out where encrypted SNI is in the RFC? I've read the RFC, and I don't recall it being in there. I do see that there is an extension published, which I haven't reviewed in depth. From a breif review, I see two potential issues: a) the encrypted sni record contains a digest of the public key structure. This digest is transmitted in the clear (as it must be at this phase of the protocol), so a determined attacker could create a database of values for the top N mirror sites. b) in order to be useful, the private key for the public keys would need to be shared across all servers supporting that hostname. That's not a big deal for a normal deployment, but it's not great for a volunteer mirrors system -- lots of diverse organizations own and operate the individual mirrors and we need to count on all of those to keep it secure. Also, it adds an extra layer of key management, which is an organizational and operational burden.
- tialaramex 8y ago
  Yeah, your parent is wrong about it being in the RFC. ESNI is something that they decided wasn't possible and ruled out of scope for TLS 1.3 but then somebody had a brainwave and Rescorla plus some people at Cloudflare wrote IDs and did live fire testing. The drafts are maybe at the "this is the rough shape of a thing" stage, more than ambitions but not a basis on which to announce specific plans. It's also pointless without DPRIVE. If people can see all your DNS lookups they can guess exactly what you're up to. That's why that Firefox build did both eSNI and DoH
- topranks 8y ago
  Yeah it’s not part of the TLS 1.3 spec (RFC8446). It’s being added, but early stages. Internet draft is here: https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-tls-esni-02.txt https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-tls-esni-02.txt

zamadatix 8y ago

I bet DoHTTPS/DoTLS has more penetration than ESNI. Neither are widely implemented though, which is the important part.

da_chicken 8y ago
Yeah, but not being implemented now doesn't mean that they never will be. Migrating/implementing now will mean that the mirrors will automatically support it once the features are in place and the clients and servers can agree on the improved privacy feature sets.

ec109685 8y ago

For sni to be effective, you need to be hitting hosts that serve more than one domain. Otherwise, you can just reverse map the ip.

y4mi 8y ago
Most of my severs don't report the actual service dns back on a reverse lookup. It's generally nodeXX.some.fqdn or clusterXX or lbXX
- jedberg 8y ago
  Yes but if I want to specifically look for traffic to the Debian mirrors, I can use DNS to build a list of the IPs and then see if you're connecting to one of them.
- shittyadmin 8y ago
  Doesn't really matter either way - there's a bunch of crawlers and scanners out there such that you can pretty much Google any IP and find a list of sites that are hosted on it.
  - dcbadacd 8y ago
    Fun fact, most of those break if you just close the connection when the client doesn't support SNI.
    - shittyadmin 8y ago
      Not quote the ones I was referring to - many services just look at DNS and get the A record for every domain then offer reverse lookup - complete lists of domains are purchasable for all major TLDs. The only defense to this would be to host your content on a subdomain. DNSlytics, DomainTools, W3Advisor and others offer this.
      - Ayesh 8y ago
        It's also easy to just scan a whole range (say, top 1m Alexa domains) and log the IP. You can scan 1m sites on a cheap $5 VPS nowadays.
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  Most services report what they are, and even the server often, when you connect. If you connect to an IP and it's serving a website then I don't know why you'd care that reverse-lookup isn't configured correctly, you're not hiding anything?
- admax88q 8y ago
  Its feasible to build a reverse lookup table of all registered domain names.

progval 8y ago

By host, they probably mean the IP address.

toast0 8y ago

Can you point out where encrypted SNI is in the RFC? I've read the RFC, and I don't recall it being in there. I do see that there is an extension published, which I haven't reviewed in depth. From a breif review, I see two potential issues: a) the encrypted sni record contains a digest of the public key structure. This digest is transmitted in the clear (as it must be at this phase of the protocol), so a determined attacker could create a database of values for the top N mirror sites. b) in order to be useful, the private key for the public keys would need to be shared across all servers supporting that hostname. That's not a big deal for a normal deployment, but it's not great for a volunteer mirrors system -- lots of diverse organizations own and operate the individual mirrors and we need to count on all of those to keep it secure. Also, it adds an extra layer of key management, which is an organizational and operational burden.

tialaramex 8y ago
Yeah, your parent is wrong about it being in the RFC. ESNI is something that they decided wasn't possible and ruled out of scope for TLS 1.3 but then somebody had a brainwave and Rescorla plus some people at Cloudflare wrote IDs and did live fire testing. The drafts are maybe at the "this is the rough shape of a thing" stage, more than ambitions but not a basis on which to announce specific plans. It's also pointless without DPRIVE. If people can see all your DNS lookups they can guess exactly what you're up to. That's why that Firefox build did both eSNI and DoH
topranks 8y ago
Yeah it’s not part of the TLS 1.3 spec (RFC8446). It’s being added, but early stages. Internet draft is here: https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-tls-esni-02.txt https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-tls-esni-02.txt