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yes, recently I went to the hardware store to get a block and tackle system [0], which I had to use many times as a child (helping my stepfather who was an inde

yes, recently I went to the hardware store to get a block and tackle system [0], which I had to use many times as a child (helping my stepfather who was an independent mason, in our "free" time). I remember seeing them in the hardware store more than 10 years ago, and they weren't very expensive in the past. I was surprised not to find any block and tackle system, well they had a pricey electromotor winch and they also had separate individual pulleys and carabiners, but combining those would quickly become a sloppy mess and approach a substantial fraction of the electric winch price... Block and tackle systems have been perfected over the ages with progressively better and better materials regarding strength and friction. Electric cranes/winches have their use cases of course for very heavy loads or faster work, but they also have a lot of disadvantages: they need a nearby power outlet or a generator (B+T you can take to the forrest if you want), there is virtually no feedback apart from your visual observation of the load, and they make a load of noise due to the gearbox. This reduces safety: due to the noise, not only can you hear less if others are speaking / warning you about a problem, but you also don't hear if the load is scraping against something (using an electric crane I once jumped away just in time as I saw a large bucket full of gravel stones tip over because the rim of the bucket got stuck on the other side of the bucket, out of view), but also with a block and tackle system, you feel if the bucket load is scraping or starting to tip through the rope line! I don't care how many bluetooth apps, or blinking leds you attach to an electric winch, it will never succeed in being as intuitive an actuating interface as the load line in your hands, and it is silent so you can hear problems with the load scraping against something, or warnings from other people. Locally we have a couple of large hardware store franchises that have displaced the smaller independent hardware stores, and its the same everywhere. I don't believe there is some greedy scrooge who plotted the removal of the analog block and tackle systems in order to force a higher expense in either individual pulleys (for those who feel they need an actual B & T, DIY if necessary) or in the electromotorized winch (for very heavy loads or faster work). What I do believe is that at some point inventory software was marketed to them, with machine learning to optimize profit, and they blindly followed what the algorithm observed (perhaps some of the shops in the franchise were temporarily out of B & T when they still sold them, whereas others had it in inventory, upon which those who needed to raise a heavy load right then, decided to buy either multiple pulleys and 2 carabiners or the electric winch. so the algorithm that knew stock saw a move that increased profit if they would refuse to stock B&T systems in the future...) So now most people in the West who in the past would have bought a B & T for occasional use, now can only buy a more dangerous, and more expensive and less intuitive device. I'm sure B & T's are still made, but I'm also sure a large number of factories that made them were subsequently closed because "demand fell" or rather "algorithm decided to let demand fall". I'm also pretty sure teachers in technical schools are still teaching kids to calculate the load for N turns through a B&T system in various kinds of scenarios even though those students will not be able to find one when they find themselves in need (they could probably still order them online, but if you see it as a basic tool at school you probably expect it to be for sale instantaneously in the brick and mortar hardware stores...) So the problem is: conspiracies exist, but they are emergent, not explicit, the programmer who wrote the inventory optimizer did not intend to replace all B&T's with electric winches at the pain of clumsy multipart pulley system. Nor did employees in the store come up with this scheme. And yet the conspiracy is executed, because if we blindly optimize we effectively and systematically turn a blind eye to potential exploitation... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_and_tackle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_and_tackle

sbierwagen 8y ago
https://www.amazon.com/Super-Handy-Heavy-Duty-Capacity-Rope-Hoist/dp/B001BXJVNC https://www.amazon.com/Super-Handy-Heavy-Duty-Capacity-Rope-... Twenty bucks on Amazon.
- DoctorOetker 8y ago
  right, as I said, you can still buy them online, but no longer in the hardware store, so you need to know in advance, whereas many people or kids straight out of technical school may assume it will be available in the hardware store so that if they plan to buy and use a B&T system over the weekend or on some day off, that day is lost or messes up the schedule and appointments made etc... also many people do not have a technical background and go to the hardware store to ask advice and buy, and they will not know the advantages of a B&T system, which in my view is much safer for rare amateur use, ... in 50 years its going to be largely forgotten (by the public) except for a dedicated minority and the rest will not even know what they are missing... whereas in the past the employee at the hardware store would have simply recommended the block and tackle depending on the load...
  - walterbell 8y ago
    Would better online discovery help the public to be aware of competing classical solutions?
    - DoctorOetker 8y ago
      yes I was thinking along similar lines. The problem is of course not the application of knowledge and optimization, but a lack of informed decisions. I'm imagining something like taking a picture of a barcode or the object itself or alternatively a URL, and then seeing alternative product types. where other consumers can suggest and vote on top 5 alternative product types without advising brands for example. I'm also quite sure that the lowest level employees walking around in those stores during the introduction of the price optimizations were suddenly bombarded for a period with different questions/requests from customers who were obviously dissappointed and that the employees were well aware that sale of some product types in demand was halted to increase revenue on others. I'm a bit torn over how regulation could help, or stop "helping" like upholding libel laws (in case mapping commercial product URL's to alternatives could be portrayed as libel). It's also environmentally unfriendly to ship everything instead of picking things up in the hardware store (which can happen on bicycle etc). So part of me really thinks it is somehow the civic duty of the brick and mortar hardware stores to continue selling say block and tackle systems, say by regulating that "if you sell single pulleys, and electromotor winches (two extremes), then you should also sell at least one type of block and tackle system" but this is obviously hard to generalize in a systematic way. An alternative is to have consumer groups / construction sector list essential product types. I would really like to hear more ideas on how to somehow (in)directly include the consumer's interests into the optimizer's loss function... EDIT: another traditional entity could be viewed as having a natural interest to inform the consumer or construction worker: the insurance agencies could have a common interest to mandate that every sale or offer of an electric winch be accompanied with a reminder (or signed acknowledgement?) not just of the dangers of low-feedback up down button controlled electric winches but also of potentially safer alternatives especially when the user will only seldom use the device, and be less familiar with the dangers. But that would only work because the blind optimization by one party led to a potential increase in danger to their clients. Also it would only work if the insurance agencies don't just look up what tools were used during the accidents in their database, but for each one of them gather a detailed report and try and determine what other tool would have been safer to use, which is probably a bit more work than they are accustomed to.

sbierwagen 8y ago

https://www.amazon.com/Super-Handy-Heavy-Duty-Capacity-Rope-Hoist/dp/B001BXJVNC https://www.amazon.com/Super-Handy-Heavy-Duty-Capacity-Rope-... Twenty bucks on Amazon.

DoctorOetker 8y ago
right, as I said, you can still buy them online, but no longer in the hardware store, so you need to know in advance, whereas many people or kids straight out of technical school may assume it will be available in the hardware store so that if they plan to buy and use a B&T system over the weekend or on some day off, that day is lost or messes up the schedule and appointments made etc... also many people do not have a technical background and go to the hardware store to ask advice and buy, and they will not know the advantages of a B&T system, which in my view is much safer for rare amateur use, ... in 50 years its going to be largely forgotten (by the public) except for a dedicated minority and the rest will not even know what they are missing... whereas in the past the employee at the hardware store would have simply recommended the block and tackle depending on the load...
- walterbell 8y ago
  Would better online discovery help the public to be aware of competing classical solutions?
  - DoctorOetker 8y ago
    yes I was thinking along similar lines. The problem is of course not the application of knowledge and optimization, but a lack of informed decisions. I'm imagining something like taking a picture of a barcode or the object itself or alternatively a URL, and then seeing alternative product types. where other consumers can suggest and vote on top 5 alternative product types without advising brands for example. I'm also quite sure that the lowest level employees walking around in those stores during the introduction of the price optimizations were suddenly bombarded for a period with different questions/requests from customers who were obviously dissappointed and that the employees were well aware that sale of some product types in demand was halted to increase revenue on others. I'm a bit torn over how regulation could help, or stop "helping" like upholding libel laws (in case mapping commercial product URL's to alternatives could be portrayed as libel). It's also environmentally unfriendly to ship everything instead of picking things up in the hardware store (which can happen on bicycle etc). So part of me really thinks it is somehow the civic duty of the brick and mortar hardware stores to continue selling say block and tackle systems, say by regulating that "if you sell single pulleys, and electromotor winches (two extremes), then you should also sell at least one type of block and tackle system" but this is obviously hard to generalize in a systematic way. An alternative is to have consumer groups / construction sector list essential product types. I would really like to hear more ideas on how to somehow (in)directly include the consumer's interests into the optimizer's loss function... EDIT: another traditional entity could be viewed as having a natural interest to inform the consumer or construction worker: the insurance agencies could have a common interest to mandate that every sale or offer of an electric winch be accompanied with a reminder (or signed acknowledgement?) not just of the dangers of low-feedback up down button controlled electric winches but also of potentially safer alternatives especially when the user will only seldom use the device, and be less familiar with the dangers. But that would only work because the blind optimization by one party led to a potential increase in danger to their clients. Also it would only work if the insurance agencies don't just look up what tools were used during the accidents in their database, but for each one of them gather a detailed report and try and determine what other tool would have been safer to use, which is probably a bit more work than they are accustomed to.