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I'm sure the MBAs have calculated to the penny the cost of these lawsuits and decided it's worth it. Getting rid of one 62yo VP with 40 years of seniority will

I'm sure the MBAs have calculated to the penny the cost of these lawsuits and decided it's worth it. Getting rid of one 62yo VP with 40 years of seniority will pay for at least a dozen young workers from a developing country, on contract, with no benefits or retirement plans to worry about.

bradleyjg 8y ago
Because of the possibility of punitive damages it would be a really bad idea to do such a calculation, or at least leave any paper trail.
- richardknop 8y ago
  This calculation would obviously be done and actions agreed on verbally without any paper trail. They are not that stupid to leave evidence.
  - bradleyjg 8y ago
    I’m reminded of the old adage “two can keep a secret if one of them is dead.” The executive that made the relevant decision probably is no longer capable/inclined to do the detailed modeling necessary. It would be extremely foolish to trust his future to the discretion of a spreadsheet jockey two years out of bschool. I bet there was no such modeling exercise. Whatever weighing of discrimination damages that happened likely took place entirely on the backs of napkins.
  - cobookman 8y ago
    You'd be surprised how dumb people are about this stuff.
  - fencepost 8y ago
    Sometimes it's stupidity that leads to leaving evidence. Sometimes it's arrogance "Before I fire you, Mr. Bond." Sometimes it's mindset "She wasn't fitting in with the team" where the team happens to be a bunch of 20-somethings and nobody realizes that there was any issue at all.
Aeolun 8y ago
I’m sure it’ll pay for them, but will it do more for the company?
tchaffee 8y ago
This is why we need mandatory jail sentences for white collar crimes. Until we do something similar to that, the companies will simply continue to base these decisions on a calculation.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  Mandatory jail times to protect 60 year old VPs over low socioeconomic status workers?
  - realbarack 8y ago
    Are you the one who gets to decide which ageist (, sexist, racist, etc.) employment practices are legal because they benefit a party you see as more deserving?
    - kittiepryde 8y ago
      Being illegal and going to prison aren't the same.
    - conanbatt 8y ago
      I dont want to decide anything, and someone saying that the VP should be protected over the low income worker is already something i clearly disagree with.
  - frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
    Yes. Age/race/gender/national-origin discrimination in hiring and firing should by punishable by, say, 4 months in prison.
    - HarryHirsch 8y ago
      Four months for a crime that affects the lifetime earnings of hundreds of people to the tune of hundreds of thousands? That's not nearly enough.
cortesoft 8y ago
As I have moved up at a larger corporation, I have come to realize that a lot of decisions are made with less calculation than you would think.
- james_s_tayler 8y ago
  I realized a couple of years ago people are actually just much less capable of making decisions than people realize. It's the corporate version of being a kid and thinking your parents know everything and then growing up and realizing that if you're winging it, you're parents must have been winging it and if it's true for you, it's true for basically everyone.
- russellbeattie 8y ago
  Then you're not high up enough yet. Look up what it takes to 'shadow' Jeff Bezos, for example. People don't get to that top echelon of a multi-billion dollar company without being insanely competent and calculating. These aren't people who get out of bed on Saturday morning and wonder what they're doing that day, or spend time idly browsing Hacker News (just, you know, as a personal example.)
  - sonnyblarney 8y ago
    Coresoft is more correct than not. It does not take 'insane competency' to get hired at high levels. That kind of competency is very hard to measure anyhow. Risk management is an excellent area to look at this because it's nary impossible to know if the correct decision was made. You do a big layoff, and 'there were no lawsuits'. Was that a win? Or not? I worked at a large corporation that had to pay a huge amount of money to an IP troll. After that, our CEO made everything to through our lawyers and we just became very risk averse. It was not a calculation, it was an emotion. Also, it's incredibly difficult to 'calculate' any of these things. I don't care how smart your MBA's are, there's just only so much specificity that you can have when trying to calculate 'the likelihood of getting sued'. It's basically guesswork. A far, far more intelligent thing to do would be to structure the layoff in such a way that the company could not get sued, by making sure they're not apparently breaking any laws. Operationally rigorous companies like MS, Amazon etc. probably have some decent hiring practices, even at higher levels, but the vast majority of companies do not.
Spooky23 8y ago
Don’t give people that much credit. Best case they are looking 4-5 quarters ahead.

bradleyjg 8y ago

Because of the possibility of punitive damages it would be a really bad idea to do such a calculation, or at least leave any paper trail.

richardknop 8y ago
This calculation would obviously be done and actions agreed on verbally without any paper trail. They are not that stupid to leave evidence.
- bradleyjg 8y ago
  I’m reminded of the old adage “two can keep a secret if one of them is dead.” The executive that made the relevant decision probably is no longer capable/inclined to do the detailed modeling necessary. It would be extremely foolish to trust his future to the discretion of a spreadsheet jockey two years out of bschool. I bet there was no such modeling exercise. Whatever weighing of discrimination damages that happened likely took place entirely on the backs of napkins.
- cobookman 8y ago
  You'd be surprised how dumb people are about this stuff.
- fencepost 8y ago
  Sometimes it's stupidity that leads to leaving evidence. Sometimes it's arrogance "Before I fire you, Mr. Bond." Sometimes it's mindset "She wasn't fitting in with the team" where the team happens to be a bunch of 20-somethings and nobody realizes that there was any issue at all.

Aeolun 8y ago

I’m sure it’ll pay for them, but will it do more for the company?

tchaffee 8y ago

This is why we need mandatory jail sentences for white collar crimes. Until we do something similar to that, the companies will simply continue to base these decisions on a calculation.

conanbatt 8y ago
Mandatory jail times to protect 60 year old VPs over low socioeconomic status workers?
- realbarack 8y ago
  Are you the one who gets to decide which ageist (, sexist, racist, etc.) employment practices are legal because they benefit a party you see as more deserving?
  - kittiepryde 8y ago
    Being illegal and going to prison aren't the same.
  - conanbatt 8y ago
    I dont want to decide anything, and someone saying that the VP should be protected over the low income worker is already something i clearly disagree with.
- frgtpsswrdlame 8y ago
  Yes. Age/race/gender/national-origin discrimination in hiring and firing should by punishable by, say, 4 months in prison.
  - HarryHirsch 8y ago
    Four months for a crime that affects the lifetime earnings of hundreds of people to the tune of hundreds of thousands? That's not nearly enough.

cortesoft 8y ago

As I have moved up at a larger corporation, I have come to realize that a lot of decisions are made with less calculation than you would think.

james_s_tayler 8y ago
I realized a couple of years ago people are actually just much less capable of making decisions than people realize. It's the corporate version of being a kid and thinking your parents know everything and then growing up and realizing that if you're winging it, you're parents must have been winging it and if it's true for you, it's true for basically everyone.
russellbeattie 8y ago
Then you're not high up enough yet. Look up what it takes to 'shadow' Jeff Bezos, for example. People don't get to that top echelon of a multi-billion dollar company without being insanely competent and calculating. These aren't people who get out of bed on Saturday morning and wonder what they're doing that day, or spend time idly browsing Hacker News (just, you know, as a personal example.)
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  Coresoft is more correct than not. It does not take 'insane competency' to get hired at high levels. That kind of competency is very hard to measure anyhow. Risk management is an excellent area to look at this because it's nary impossible to know if the correct decision was made. You do a big layoff, and 'there were no lawsuits'. Was that a win? Or not? I worked at a large corporation that had to pay a huge amount of money to an IP troll. After that, our CEO made everything to through our lawyers and we just became very risk averse. It was not a calculation, it was an emotion. Also, it's incredibly difficult to 'calculate' any of these things. I don't care how smart your MBA's are, there's just only so much specificity that you can have when trying to calculate 'the likelihood of getting sued'. It's basically guesswork. A far, far more intelligent thing to do would be to structure the layoff in such a way that the company could not get sued, by making sure they're not apparently breaking any laws. Operationally rigorous companies like MS, Amazon etc. probably have some decent hiring practices, even at higher levels, but the vast majority of companies do not.

Spooky23 8y ago

Don’t give people that much credit. Best case they are looking 4-5 quarters ahead.