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What surprises me about this is the throwaway remark suggesting soccer and hockey should be lumped in with American football. As I understand it, they are not c

What surprises me about this is the throwaway remark suggesting soccer and hockey should be lumped in with American football. As I understand it, they are not close to being in the same category for brain injury. What's the justification for that remark?

thewizardofaus 8y ago
Correct. I believe the dangers with American football is the use of the helmets in particular. It allows for tackles that normally would not be possible without the attackee injuring themselves. Refer to Rugby or Australian Football for comparisons.
- secfirstmd 8y ago
  Hmm yes American football is worse than the others but this overall problem makes me really concerned for rugby. Head injury issues and the subsequent legal exposure is only starting to become an issue taken seriously in the sport. Frankly, the sport doesn't have the money that the American football system has to be able to survive an onslaught of legal cases.
Touche 8y ago
There have been a number of cases of former NHL players with CTE. I'm not sure it's as many as in the NFL, but it has less focus so possibly underreported.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  ISTR many of those afflicted NHL players had been goons/enforcers, so much of their CTE could be attributed to fisticuffs. Sure, that's one of the most entertaining parts of hockey, but it's not integral to the game in any sense. In fact non-pro hockey doesn't have that at all. (If you get in a serious fight in a high school game you might get arrested, and rightly so.) It seems that the NHL could fund some studies to figure out whether this is the case. TPTB probably want to get rid of fighting anyway to attract the "cuddlier" millennial fan. (cf. NFL's offensive explosion this year due to their new "no touching the QB" rules. I'm not complaining; my team drafted the Mahomes.) If NHL had studies that blamed fighting for all their CTE, they would have an argument to present to their more "traditional" fans while changing the rules to attract the new younger fanbase they desire.
toyg 8y ago
> What's the justification for that remark? A desperate false equivalence to defend the right to exist of a brutal sport that doesn't belong to a modern compassionate world.
ReptileMan 8y ago
Well soccer have head play and hockey has a lot of full contact. While probably not in the same league - we should probably monitor.
- arrrg 8y ago
  The implications of banning headers in soccer would be quite interesting, but it also seems entirely possible, as in the game wouldn’t suddenly be completely different. After all, handling the ball (referring to both arms and hands) is already banned and banning the head would just neatly slot in there and could use the same rules. (I.e. just add “or head” to this sentence in the rules of the game “Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm.”). (If you ban headers for health reasons you should, however, probably also ban the goalkeeper from doing headers, even though the goalkeeper is allowed to handle the ball under certain circumstances.) I do not know what other rule changes would be necessary, but, as I said, I wouldn’t expect the game to be radically different and unrecognisable. (Are there implications for corners and free kicks would be my main question. I could imagine that those are suddenly worth less if headers are disallowed, since in those situations the defenders have time to get in place and space and – as a direct consequence – time are consequently tight. Always having to get the ball to the ground or at least on a level where you can kick it somehow will slow the game down, giving defenders more time to react.) But I also know that soccer (associations, clubs, fans) can be very conservative …
lotsofpulp 8y ago
Repetitive blows to the head cause brain damage, doesn’t matter if it’s a header in soccer or a fist fight or body check in ice hockey or a tackle in football or punches in boxing. The brain is still get knocked around.
- Brakenshire 8y ago
  Soccer does have a problem with not treating conscussions seriously where there is the occasional clash of heads. Headers are subconcussive, and it seems the evidence is not clear what the health impact is of that.
  - mrob 8y ago
    Even if headers turn out not to be harmful, many of those clashes of heads are caused by two players going for a header at the same time, so there's still reason to ban them.
    - Brakenshire 8y ago
      The clash of heads issue will likely be solved by having independent medics judge fitness to continue rather than club physios. The problem is people continuing to play after the first concussion. Clash of heads is quite rare, maybe one concussion every 5-10 games, so I doubt headers will be banned unless there is conclusive evidence that the subconcussive impacts of the headers themselves are harmful.
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    Even if the evidence is not crystal clear that impacts to the head cause brain damage, I think it’s worth erring on the side of caution when trying to figure out if knocking your brain around against the skull damages it, even if it doesn’t cause a concussion. Why anyone would want to mess with the brain is beyond me.
thekingofh 8y ago
Soccer has headers and the occasional accidental clash of heads. The youth organizations have mostly all banned headers up to a certain age. To be honest, I'd be fine if they banned headers in the game completely if it became an issue. Even then, the ball is lighter than it used to be, so it's a difficult thing to track if headers are still an issue. Technology and rule changes could almost fix it completely. But not sure how they're going to do that for gridiron football and still retain the essence of the game.
kasey_junk 8y ago
First let me start by saying that the research on brain injuries and sports is very new and at times has shown fairly bad protocols in the studies, so basically anything you read on the subject requires more specialist context than I have. That said, in reading about this for the last decade or so when it became a top news item, its become apparent that most brain injury news stories don't report on them very well and lump 2 drastically different kinds of brain injury into the same bucket. Concussions and CTE. The former is caused by a single traumatic event that can leave the brain damaged after it. The latter is probably a repetitive injury, lots of small events that add up to brain damage. Gridiron football has the opportunity for both. Big shots on open field runners frequently lead to concussions, but for CTE the most dangerous position may be offensive linemen who infrequently take those high speed impacts that get so much coverage. Instead on every play they are taking repeated small blows to the head. This is how soccer gets lumped in. There is at least circumstantial evidence that the arial game in soccer and potentially even header practice can lead to CTE at fairly high incidence rates. Given the lack of studies its unclear what the level of danger is. Hockey on the other hand has the opposite danger. Repeated small head hits are rarer than in football but the incidence of traumatic concussion causing hits is similar if not higher. American football is the first sport to have major studies around brain injury and those are fairly early days. As the other sports have more studies, and as the studies get more data, I suspect we will find that all contact sports put you at risk of brain injury and that football and rugby have higher incidence of CTE than the others. But thats just guess work right now.
- lrm242 8y ago
  For soccer it’s trivial to remove the aerial aspect from the youth game, in fact they’ve already done it. No headers, no throw ins, etc. Doing so doesn’t do much to change the game at a youth level. Football on the other hand... it’s pretty much impossible to take the CTE risk away without ending up with another sport (rugby, Aussie rules, whatever). IMO the long term viability of US football is not good.
  - freewilly1040 8y ago
    I would bet also that an effective soccer helmet is at least feasible.
nabla9 8y ago
Hockey seems to have serious brain injury problem, deaths and concussion lawsuits but not enough epidemiological data. There is slowly growing body of literature that points to similar problem as American football. Maybe the brain autopsies from dead players will turn the tables there as well.
- freewilly1040 8y ago
  This has certainly been the case with NHL “enforcers” who’s job is to have bare knuckle fistfights on the ice. Granted it’s been a while since I followed hockey so I’m not sure if that’s still a thing.

thewizardofaus 8y ago

Correct. I believe the dangers with American football is the use of the helmets in particular. It allows for tackles that normally would not be possible without the attackee injuring themselves. Refer to Rugby or Australian Football for comparisons.

secfirstmd 8y ago
Hmm yes American football is worse than the others but this overall problem makes me really concerned for rugby. Head injury issues and the subsequent legal exposure is only starting to become an issue taken seriously in the sport. Frankly, the sport doesn't have the money that the American football system has to be able to survive an onslaught of legal cases.

Touche 8y ago

There have been a number of cases of former NHL players with CTE. I'm not sure it's as many as in the NFL, but it has less focus so possibly underreported.

jessaustin 8y ago
ISTR many of those afflicted NHL players had been goons/enforcers, so much of their CTE could be attributed to fisticuffs. Sure, that's one of the most entertaining parts of hockey, but it's not integral to the game in any sense. In fact non-pro hockey doesn't have that at all. (If you get in a serious fight in a high school game you might get arrested, and rightly so.) It seems that the NHL could fund some studies to figure out whether this is the case. TPTB probably want to get rid of fighting anyway to attract the "cuddlier" millennial fan. (cf. NFL's offensive explosion this year due to their new "no touching the QB" rules. I'm not complaining; my team drafted the Mahomes.) If NHL had studies that blamed fighting for all their CTE, they would have an argument to present to their more "traditional" fans while changing the rules to attract the new younger fanbase they desire.

toyg 8y ago

> What's the justification for that remark? A desperate false equivalence to defend the right to exist of a brutal sport that doesn't belong to a modern compassionate world.

ReptileMan 8y ago

Well soccer have head play and hockey has a lot of full contact. While probably not in the same league - we should probably monitor.

arrrg 8y ago
The implications of banning headers in soccer would be quite interesting, but it also seems entirely possible, as in the game wouldn’t suddenly be completely different. After all, handling the ball (referring to both arms and hands) is already banned and banning the head would just neatly slot in there and could use the same rules. (I.e. just add “or head” to this sentence in the rules of the game “Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with the ball with his hand or arm.”). (If you ban headers for health reasons you should, however, probably also ban the goalkeeper from doing headers, even though the goalkeeper is allowed to handle the ball under certain circumstances.) I do not know what other rule changes would be necessary, but, as I said, I wouldn’t expect the game to be radically different and unrecognisable. (Are there implications for corners and free kicks would be my main question. I could imagine that those are suddenly worth less if headers are disallowed, since in those situations the defenders have time to get in place and space and – as a direct consequence – time are consequently tight. Always having to get the ball to the ground or at least on a level where you can kick it somehow will slow the game down, giving defenders more time to react.) But I also know that soccer (associations, clubs, fans) can be very conservative …

lotsofpulp 8y ago

Repetitive blows to the head cause brain damage, doesn’t matter if it’s a header in soccer or a fist fight or body check in ice hockey or a tackle in football or punches in boxing. The brain is still get knocked around.

Brakenshire 8y ago
Soccer does have a problem with not treating conscussions seriously where there is the occasional clash of heads. Headers are subconcussive, and it seems the evidence is not clear what the health impact is of that.
- mrob 8y ago
  Even if headers turn out not to be harmful, many of those clashes of heads are caused by two players going for a header at the same time, so there's still reason to ban them.
  - Brakenshire 8y ago
    The clash of heads issue will likely be solved by having independent medics judge fitness to continue rather than club physios. The problem is people continuing to play after the first concussion. Clash of heads is quite rare, maybe one concussion every 5-10 games, so I doubt headers will be banned unless there is conclusive evidence that the subconcussive impacts of the headers themselves are harmful.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  Even if the evidence is not crystal clear that impacts to the head cause brain damage, I think it’s worth erring on the side of caution when trying to figure out if knocking your brain around against the skull damages it, even if it doesn’t cause a concussion. Why anyone would want to mess with the brain is beyond me.

thekingofh 8y ago

Soccer has headers and the occasional accidental clash of heads. The youth organizations have mostly all banned headers up to a certain age. To be honest, I'd be fine if they banned headers in the game completely if it became an issue. Even then, the ball is lighter than it used to be, so it's a difficult thing to track if headers are still an issue. Technology and rule changes could almost fix it completely. But not sure how they're going to do that for gridiron football and still retain the essence of the game.

kasey_junk 8y ago

First let me start by saying that the research on brain injuries and sports is very new and at times has shown fairly bad protocols in the studies, so basically anything you read on the subject requires more specialist context than I have. That said, in reading about this for the last decade or so when it became a top news item, its become apparent that most brain injury news stories don't report on them very well and lump 2 drastically different kinds of brain injury into the same bucket. Concussions and CTE. The former is caused by a single traumatic event that can leave the brain damaged after it. The latter is probably a repetitive injury, lots of small events that add up to brain damage. Gridiron football has the opportunity for both. Big shots on open field runners frequently lead to concussions, but for CTE the most dangerous position may be offensive linemen who infrequently take those high speed impacts that get so much coverage. Instead on every play they are taking repeated small blows to the head. This is how soccer gets lumped in. There is at least circumstantial evidence that the arial game in soccer and potentially even header practice can lead to CTE at fairly high incidence rates. Given the lack of studies its unclear what the level of danger is. Hockey on the other hand has the opposite danger. Repeated small head hits are rarer than in football but the incidence of traumatic concussion causing hits is similar if not higher. American football is the first sport to have major studies around brain injury and those are fairly early days. As the other sports have more studies, and as the studies get more data, I suspect we will find that all contact sports put you at risk of brain injury and that football and rugby have higher incidence of CTE than the others. But thats just guess work right now.

lrm242 8y ago
For soccer it’s trivial to remove the aerial aspect from the youth game, in fact they’ve already done it. No headers, no throw ins, etc. Doing so doesn’t do much to change the game at a youth level. Football on the other hand... it’s pretty much impossible to take the CTE risk away without ending up with another sport (rugby, Aussie rules, whatever). IMO the long term viability of US football is not good.
- freewilly1040 8y ago
  I would bet also that an effective soccer helmet is at least feasible.

nabla9 8y ago

Hockey seems to have serious brain injury problem, deaths and concussion lawsuits but not enough epidemiological data. There is slowly growing body of literature that points to similar problem as American football. Maybe the brain autopsies from dead players will turn the tables there as well.

freewilly1040 8y ago
This has certainly been the case with NHL “enforcers” who’s job is to have bare knuckle fistfights on the ice. Granted it’s been a while since I followed hockey so I’m not sure if that’s still a thing.