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Former IBM exec says company told her to hide layoff age data from government
- omeid2 8y agoI am afraid I am risking to be misunderstood, but I think, it is a question worth asking and considering. One's outlook and productivity changes with time and age, just like an athlete's fitness. I suppose the hard question is, if a productivity and alignment with organization attitude and culture index correlates indirectly with age, what is to be done?
- nate_meurer 8y agoI think you mean inversely. The question is a bit of a red herring. By all means, get rid of unproductive and troublesome employees. But if you try to use age as a simplistic predictive proxy for productivity or attitude, I think evidence shows that you'll fire a lot of the wrong people, as well as court the wrath of labor attorneys.
- omeid2 8y ago> I think you mean inversely. No. > But if you try to use age a simplistic predictive proxy... Well, that is obviously the wrong thing to do, but I am not sure how that relates to my question.
- jsivakumaran 8y agoYour comment above would make more sense had you said inversely.
- nate_meurer 8y agoOk, then I have no idea what you were asking. Can you state it in a different way?
- User23 8y agoBluntly stated, young fools who work 80+ hours a week provide a greater short term return for employers than older persons who have a life and a family that also makes demands on their time.
- smbullet 8y agoI don't think omeid was talking about time spent in the office but rather cognitive ability.
- killaken2000 8y agoIndirect (negative) correlation is used when something goes up but the thing under discussion goes down. I think you were thinking of inversely proportional. Searching Wikipedia, inverse correlation is also valid but I've always heard it called indirect or negative. I knew what you meant and you were on the right track.
- acct1771 8y agoStop tying compensation to seniority, and start giving it upon completion of tasks/improvement of business...?
- paganel 8y agoThe task thing is questionable, because that way you just create incentives for the people involved to introduce more (most of them un-needed) tasks into the system, tasks which will show up on the performance reviews as being completed. A lot of the senior guys solve un-created tasks, so to speak, by saying stuff like YAGNI or KISS or by eliminating potential bugs (future tasks) by pointing out that going a certain development route will create those bugs.
- LoSboccacc 8y ago> Stop tying compensation to seniority next, on hacker news: "why nobody makes children anymore"
- ThenAsNow 8y agoThere already is (and has been) knee-jerk reaction to this comment, but fundamentally I think your first clause represents territory that should be explored. I'm a huge believer in the value of retaining senior staff and making it part of their responsibility set to help mentor and develop more junior staff. However, if we take at face value the argument that it is too expensive to keep these people on staff, why not explore ideas that reduce how closely correlated compensation is to seniority rather than some measure of overall value across all dimensions of contribution?
- awakeasleep 8y agoIn the USA, we decided that we're willing to make that trade off. We have 'protected characteristics' and we don't hire and fire people based on those characteristics, or proxies of those characteristics. It might be less efficient for businesses, in some cases, but through the courts and our legislature, and within the bounds of our constitution we've decided it's a good trade-off for society.
- tomjen3 8y agoBut then businesses will keep doing so secretly and indirectly, which will just hurt people who share correlating traits with the disadvantages hires, e.g women with no interest in having children.
- jhall1468 8y agoI'm not sure advocating that we remove the law in order to prevent businesses from quietly breaking it is really solving the problem here.
- tomjen3 8y agoAt least if that was the case we would be able to quantify it, and people would know which industries it was worst in, and how much (eg. you should expect your income to peak at 42 years, save accordingly).
- jhall1468 8y agoSure, we can also legalize murder and learn a lot more about people that do it, why and a whole bunch of other data, but we don't do that for obvious reasons. This is just a less fantastical example of that. And you can see how successful their attempt at hiding it was.
- nsgi 8y agoWhy would age discrimination be easier to quantify if it was legal?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- tomjen3 8y agoIn the cases where you have an indirect correlation, all you have to do is make it easier to measure the source that actually causes your undesired effect. E.g if your customers assume only your male retail workers can help them with their electronics, you can make sure everybodies name badge says "Certified $PRODUCT expert". The problem is when you have a situation like this, where the protected trait is likely the cause of issue (we all get slower and less intelligent as we age), or where you have government idiots say that you can't discriminate on traits that are correlated with a protected trait. In the latter situation businesses will do so anyway, they will just do it secretly and try to cover it up.
- noitsnot 8y agoIt sounds more like a budget issue more than anything else. If companies want to exploit young, cheap labor for free 'overtime' then maybe it's a business ethics problem.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- lhinds 8y ago> One's outlook and productivity changes with time and age On what data do you make this statement? A quick cursory search shows its completely false and based on not much more than ignorance or prejudice.
- omeid2 8y agoAre you suggesting that there is no age-related cognitive decline? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4767530/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4767530/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4015335/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4015335/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683339/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683339/
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- perfmode 8y agoCognitive decline is not the same as drop in productivity.
- anticensor 8y agoIt is correlated as aging also slows reaction. Slower reaction and worsened cognition together put a ceiling on how fast you can produce.
- sifoobar 8y agoProduce what, exactly? Because anything beyond pushing a button N times per hour is going to benefit from experience, and it gets more important with task complexity. I would much rather have someone with 30 years of experience writing code I depend on than a 20-something who can type 10 times as fast.
- tertius 8y agoBecause you say so? Because you feel it's intuitive?
- sbov 8y ago> "I was very surprised that such a high percentage of my group was laid off, because my group was running under budget and was exceeding its performance targets." Under budget, exceeding targets, so when you say changes with time and age, do you mean gets better? Or what?
- radicalbyte 8y agoClearly worse. As a consulting company IBM makes more money when their customer's projects are running over budget whilst being under performance targets.
- omeid2 8y ago"my group" is always the best. -- every group ever. But when I say changes with time and age, I mean the well establish notion of age-related cogitative decline and increased family responsibilities that taxes job commitment.
- Aeolun 8y agoThe only thing family responsibilities tax is ‘time in office’. That doesn’t correlate with commitment at all.
- omeid2 8y agoI don't buy that, family responsibilities can cloud your mind all day long. Family like other social and personal responsibilities are not something that you can simply switch off.
- Aeolun 8y agoIn that case it’s irrelevant if those ‘responsibilities’ that clog your mind come from family or friends.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- Someone 8y agoThe same thing we do if it is indirectly correlated with, say, skin color, gender, or being named “Smith”.
- TomK32 8y agoMaybe old-timers could sell their brains with decades of knowledge and experience to the company who then implant that brain into a 20yr-old? It doesn't guarantee loyalty so the kid might be gone to the competition in two years (it thinks the avg is even less for some programmer roles) but who cares long-term?
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago>> One's outlook and productivity changes with time and age, just like an athlete's fitness. According to the former exec's claim, the workers laid off were over 40. The following is a list of 40 athletes over 40: http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/14799377/who-calling-old-40-athletes-40-jaromir-jagr-defied-father http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/14799377/who-cal... Which should lay to rest any sweeping assumption about the fitness of athletes that are older than some arbitrary cut-off point after which it's all "downhill from there". And that's not before pointing out what a huge assumption it is that your ability to perform office work declines at the same rate as muscle fitness. Or that having say 10 years of experience in an industry is rather more valuable than having firm biceps.
- omeid2 8y ago"process x is temporal like y" does not suggest that they follow the exact rate or trajectory. My intention was not to suggest that cognitive skills decline the same rate as muscle fitness, though, physical fitness certainly does impact cognitive health. Nor I suggested that 40 or any age as a cut off point, but age related cognitive decline is a fact, specially in relation to complex tasks, so it is given that as people get older there will be a higher change in their productivity. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4767530/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4767530/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4015335/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4015335/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683339/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2683339/
- Retric 8y agoCognitive function is not a single thing. Look at the highest ranked Go players and they are not nessisarily young. At the same time Starcraft players peak very yong. Business is not about twitch reflexes.
- YeGoblynQueenne 8y agoThere are many reasons to be cautious when drawing any conclusions from the three studies you quote. The first is a neuroimaging study that is rather inconclusive and even poitns out that some cognitive abilities are thought to deteriorate with age, while others are thought to improve. The second is a discussion of various assumptions and results and asserts that the decline of cognitive abilities can be averted by engaging in certain activities. The last concludes that changes in cognitive abilities in the same individual over time do not necessarily reflect the results of aging ("maturation"). In other words, those studies do not support your assertion that "age related congitive decline is a fact". None of the studies discusses "productivity" (or "outlook" as per your earlier comment).
- mikeash 8y agoLet me ask a slightly modified version of that question: if alignment with organizational attitude and culture correlated with being white, what is to be done?
- Consultant32452 8y agoThis is only a problem if you believe that racial bias provides real economic value to the ones doing the biasing. Otherwise, why do you care if a bunch of racists make their businesses less economically efficient? Someone else who is otherwise equal but not racist will eat their lunch with all these high quality people hired at a discount because the original group biased against them.
- mikeash 8y agoThat’s a nice theory but conflicts strongly with how this has actually worked in the real world.
- Consultant32452 8y agoThere are two axioms in my previous post: 1. Minorites are just as valuable as white workers 2. Relatively economically efficient companies tend to prosper compared to inefficient ones Which theory/axiom do you disagree with?
- mikeash 8y agoThere is at least one more: 3. the combination of 1 and 2 will overcome everything else and is enough to force racist companies out of business. That is the one I disagree with.
- Consultant32452 8y agoWhat is "everything else"? It sounds like trying to force people with $bad ideas to become even more wealthy and powerful by legislating they make better business decisions. That seems like the opposite of what I'd want to do.
- coldtea 8y ago>One's outlook and productivity changes with time and age, just like an athlete's fitness. Statistically, as the world currently is (even if it's due to cultural or economic reasons), it might also change with race and sex. Should companies also hire less blacks/women/etc?
- scottlocklin 8y ago"if a productivity and alignment with organization attitude and culture index correlates indirectly with (sex/sex identity/race/eye color/blood type/religion), what is to be done?" Asking the question with different nouns instead of "age" so you can see what is wrong with it.
- pluc 8y agoExcept none of your qualifiers match what age does to an aging person. But keep pushing for political correctness where it's completely irrelevant!
- scottlocklin 8y agoCitations needed: you don't know that. For all we know, FB and Google's best employees might be a bunch of straight white 30 year old dudes. Should they only hire such people?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- Aeolun 8y agoIt’s not about the fact that it happens gradually, as long as someone is doing their job perfectly there’s no legitimate reason to fire them for being old.
- russellbeattie 8y agoI'm sure the MBAs have calculated to the penny the cost of these lawsuits and decided it's worth it. Getting rid of one 62yo VP with 40 years of seniority will pay for at least a dozen young workers from a developing country, on contract, with no benefits or retirement plans to worry about.
- bradleyjg 8y agoBecause of the possibility of punitive damages it would be a really bad idea to do such a calculation, or at least leave any paper trail.
- richardknop 8y agoThis calculation would obviously be done and actions agreed on verbally without any paper trail. They are not that stupid to leave evidence.
- bradleyjg 8y agoI’m reminded of the old adage “two can keep a secret if one of them is dead.” The executive that made the relevant decision probably is no longer capable/inclined to do the detailed modeling necessary. It would be extremely foolish to trust his future to the discretion of a spreadsheet jockey two years out of bschool. I bet there was no such modeling exercise. Whatever weighing of discrimination damages that happened likely took place entirely on the backs of napkins.
- cobookman 8y agoYou'd be surprised how dumb people are about this stuff.
- fencepost 8y agoSometimes it's stupidity that leads to leaving evidence. Sometimes it's arrogance "Before I fire you, Mr. Bond." Sometimes it's mindset "She wasn't fitting in with the team" where the team happens to be a bunch of 20-somethings and nobody realizes that there was any issue at all.
- SrslyJosh 8y agoJust wait till you hear what they were up to in the early 40s...
- NullPrefix 8y agoCalculating "layoffs" back then, calculating layoffs now
- onetimemanytime 8y agoMore to the likes of improving gas chamber efficiency or something like that.
- onetimemanytime 8y agofor those that downvoted: "However, another invention did exist: the IBM punch card and card sorting system-a precursor to the computer. IBM, primarily through its German subsidiary, made Hitler's program of Jewish destruction a technologic mission the company pursued with chilling success. IBM Germany, using its own staff and equipment, designed, executed, and supplied the indispensable technologic assistance Hitler's Third Reich needed to accomplish what had never been done before-the automation of human destruction. More than 2,000 such multi-machine sets were dispatched throughout Germany, and thousands more throughout German-dominated Europe. Card sorting operations were established in every major concentration camp. People were moved from place to place, systematically worked to death, and their remains cataloged with icy automation. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ibm-and-quot-death-s-calculator-quot https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ibm-and-quot-death-s-ca...
- Shivetya 8y agoWhen we had a "force reduction" being friends with three people who were let go I was given a copy of the paperwork they had all of which was in PDF form. There was a section that detailed their rights and such but also included was a list of every position and the age of the person in that position for those being let go. No names, sex, or race.
- lallysingh 8y agoIn the UK?
- patrickg_zill 8y agoSo I wonder if there is a difference between the stock grants offered to older workers vs. current stock grants offered to the new hires. The executive officers left would be able to get a larger slice of the stock pool.
- omouse 8y agoThis is why we need unions.
- ralusek 8y agoPlease no.
- acdha 8y agoCan you state why, with supporting evidence rather than “everyone knows” retelling of propaganda?
- tchaffee 8y agoOr just much stronger labor laws with harsher penalties that make it not worth discriminating. In terms of being realistic about what might happen I think stronger laws would be easier to achieve than getting programmers to unionize.
- luckydata 8y agoYou don't get better labor laws without unions. You just don't.
- justtopost 8y agoTo call that unverifiable would be polite. Do you have any evidince to support your claim?
- jahaja 8y agoUhm, compare western European labour laws with US labour laws?
- tchaffee 8y agoCan you provide a source backing this up? I worked in the EU for many years and was never a member of a union. I worked in technology. However I enjoyed strong labor laws. It could be as simple as voters choosing politicians who promise strong labor laws? So it's not self-evident that unions were involved.
- mathattack 8y agoThe crazy thing is when I interact with IBM, it’s mostly older workers. I can’t recall a smart young person going there in decades.
- hardwaresofton 8y agoI thought the same way for a long time but there's some vibrant development happening in Austin from what I hear. They also bought Strongloop[0] a while back, so the developers from aqui-hires have to go somewhere. [0]: https://strongloop.com/ https://strongloop.com/
- mathattack 8y agoDo they stay after 2 years? They seem to be in the auditing and shareback business. Probably the right way to return cash to shareholders but not a high growth tech company. (And if the accusations are true, not an ethical one either, though the bar may be low)
- hardwaresofton 8y agoSorry I only worked in Austin (and not at IBM) -- I have no idea :(. I ran into some IBMers that were young and excited at a JS conference over 3 years ago.
- dunpeal 8y ago> They also bought Strongloop[0] a while back, so the developers from aqui-hires have to go somewhere. That would be somewhere else. Strongloop is in SV, there's no shortage of opportunity for the devs who worked there. Unless they got some serious golden handcuffs, in which case I'm sure some will stay for the 3-5 years these last.
- hardwaresofton 8y agoAh I didn't mean to imply that Strongloop was in Austin -- didn't know that Strongloop was in SV though, but I guess that makes sense. I would think IBM has excellent golden handcuffs, not to speak of prestige and interesting problems. Like other big companies, it just depends on your distance from the C-levels and which team you get to be on -- do you get to do the interesting work or the boring work.
- vikingcaffiene 8y agoThe thing with being over 40 is that it happens to everyone if you live long enough. If its proven that IBM did engage in this behavior, may they burn to the ground and be made an example.
- aperrien 8y agoI don't know if it's as effective to go after the company for this. In an ideal world, you'd go after the people who made the decision, even if they've left the company.
- doktrin 8y agoI think I see where you're coming from, but at the same time we shouldn't establish a precedent that makes it even easier for companies to hide behind some named scapegoat. The decision was carried out in IBM's name, and IBM bears responsibility for it.
- WalterSear 8y agoPorque no los dos?
- ambicapter 8y ago> we shouldn't establish a precedent that makes it even easier for companies to hide behind some named scapegoat. As opposed to just hiding behind the corporate charter?
- doktrin 8y agoNot sure what kind of answer you expect. The existence of one oft-used loophole is a reason to create another?
- smt88 8y agoIBM survived their instrumental role in Nazi Germany's war machine. They'll survive this. Corporate crime seems to have become a slap-on-the-wrist offense in the US.
- throwitawayibm 8y agoGoing throwaway since usual username is my full name... Honestly I’m glad this lawsuit is happening. I used to work at IBM and left a few years later. During that time, they killed the pension program, modified separation packages that significantly affected tenured employees, and we almost exclusively hired college grads. Our budget for experienced hires was so low that it made it impossible to get any takers. I witness very well qualified folks be let go for no reason. I’ve witnessed college grads getting paid much much more than senior employee. There were jokes of calling certain employees “dinasaurs” since they were put on terrible jobs in hopes to make them quit, but they would stay strong doing something they hate to get their pension. I’m talking about full time support positions on software that has had no development in 10+ years. I think a lot of this has to do with cost. Old people cost more money. Young people are gullible and willing to take a 60k entry level with no bonus. I think age discrimination is a result of shady budgets. They need a spanking by the government and I’m glad this person of such seniority cane forward. I 10000% believe the statement.
- tehlike 8y agoYou mention colllege grads being cheap, then also say: "I’ve witnessed college grads getting paid much much more than senior employee.".
- fencepost 8y agoThis is part of the reason I'm working on setting up my own business rather than looking at moving back into corporate IT. A regular salary and defined responsibilities in specific areas ("I'm building X" where X is project-level not project+financial/taxes+management/employment+regulatory) has its definite attractions, but I'm very concerned about long-term sustainability. "Flow"[0] only gets you so far, and if you have to worry about the viability of your employment vs the viability of the project, product or company it's an added set of stress. Silver temples as a company owner negotiating a services contract seems like a very different thing than silver temples as a software developer looking for work. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)
- jibanes 8y agoIt's not just IBM, it's really any company that had a few consecutive bad quarters at this point.
- WalterSear 8y agoIBM has a long history of this.
- techntoke 8y agoCorporations are no different than being in the armed forces. You do unethical things, but it is all justifiable because you're "just doing your job and taking orders".
- tmm84 8y agoAgeism is real. The older I get, the more and more I see it with my eyes. I have seen people denied jobs purely on age and have to work for peanuts because of their age (old or young). I sometimes fear the future because we are all getting old and the only ones living comfortably will be the elite money hoarders.