4 ms·

The European Union has a wall in Africa that seven layers thick, Israel has border walls, Berlin was divided by a wall up until the 1989. Walls are not relegat

The European Union has a wall in Africa that seven layers thick, Israel has border walls, Berlin was divided by a wall up until the 1989. Walls are not relegated to the middle ages.

dragontamer 8y ago
> Berlin was divided by a wall up until the 1989 Ah yes. And the Republican President of the time was well known for saying, "Mr. Gorbachev... BUILD UP THIS WALL!!" You haven't picked exactly the best examples. In the USA, over 60% of our illegal immigrants are due to overstayed visas. The Wall does nothing for them. Another point: the #1 illegal immigrant in the USA is Canadians: a Mexian wall is on the wrong part of the country if you're most concerned about undocumented people. The thing we need, and something I'd support, is proper enforcement of our laws. Like employers who hire undocumented workers should be better punished.
- mondo9000 8y ago
  >> is proper enforcement of our laws 11 million illegal/undocumented in the USA, what does enforcement even mean at this point? If you punish the employers then the immigrants have to rely on the welfare system.
  - dragontamer 8y ago
    > If you punish the employers then the immigrants have to rely on the welfare system. What? An undocumented immigrant by definition is missing their passport (or other papers). How exactly are they going to collect food-stamps, medicaid, or social security without documentation? You CAN'T collect food stamps ("SNAP" program) without a social security number. IIRC, green-card holders can apply, but you have to have all your documents in order. Its about the employers yo. They're a big piece of the puzzle. Undocumented people are generally allergic to going into government offices (they're worried about getting deported). In any case, the welfare system is generally closed to them. At best: some undocumented migrants rely upon their children (who may have been born in the USA, and are therefore citizens) to get food stamps. But I wouldn't necessarily call the welfare system (SNAP, Social Security, or Medicaid) open to undocumented people. As I said earlier: if you are serious about the problem, then you need to go after the employers.
    - yellowapple 8y ago
      Fraud (e.g. with a stolen SSN) is another option that's used in at least some cases. Probably nowhere near the majority of illegal immigrants are using fraudulent credentials, though.
      - masonic 8y ago
        It's quite common, to evade E-Verify. Mollie Tibbetts' killer used identity theft in this way, for one example.
    - rocopoly01 8y ago
      Great points. One of the easiest solutions - Everify (https://www.e-verify.gov/ https://www.e-verify.gov/) is voluntary. How is a system that is supposed to check eligibility voluntary? That's because employers and the Chamber of Commerce fought to keep it that way. Also, it is true, contrary to a common myth, you cannot get food stamps if you are an undocumented immigrant. See this article for more on this - https://foodstampsnow.com/can-permanent-residents-and-non-citizens-get-food-stamps/ https://foodstampsnow.com/can-permanent-residents-and-non-ci.... It's very hard to use fraudulent SSN to get food stamps because all the welfare programs share information check their data against other state and government database. It's not worth the risk and most undocumented immigrants know this. It's one sure way to have ICE at your door.
- nkurz 8y ago
  the #1 illegal immigrant in the USA is Canadians I don't think this is true. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting you? The quick searches I just did suggest that about half the illegal immigrants living in America are from Mexico. Here's an example: http://www.pewhispanic.org/2018/11/27/u-s-unauthorized-immigrant-total-dips-to-lowest-level-in-a-decade/ http://www.pewhispanic.org/2018/11/27/u-s-unauthorized-immig... It says that there are about 11 million "unauthorized" immigrants living in the US: 5.5 million from Mexico, 2.5 million from Central and South America, and only 500,000 (combined but not distinguished) from Europe and Canada.
- masonic 8y ago
  the #1 illegal immigrant in the USA is Canadians This is a flat lie.
orwin 8y ago
It's not a wall, and it's not seven layer everywhere. A wall is shooting yourself in the foot, seven layer is just the entry point. If you never went to gibraltar, please, please don't propagate false claims. Multiple videos exist that explain how the EU border there work, you can easely check if someone lied to you, so please do.
- mondo9000 8y ago
  I watched the vox video what's wrong with it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY_Yiu2U2Ts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY_Yiu2U2Ts
  - orwin 8y ago
    This is actually a fairly accurate video (and it seems that it is worst than when i was there 15 years ago somehow, the ditch and the morrocan side fences are new). I don't like that some opinion were leaking through the depiction of facts (even if i have the same opinion) though, but i understand this is hard. You can see this not a wall (because you can't see through walls obviously), and that this is not effective without border security agent. Do you know that even with a see-through fence and cncrete floor, people were still able to dig themselves in? They though about creating an artificial underground river alongside a the time (it is probably replaced by the ditch now). They hired a team of engineer in the late 90s (or early 20s at least) to create a secure door system that won't force people from morocco who work there to wait unknown amount of time. If maquiladoras are still a thing, you might have to do the same. I don't think a wall is a good idea, but maybe US should try it. Please be accurate though, if you want to have an efficient border "wall", it should never be a wall, but a fence, and you should actually have border agent monitoring the fence at all time. Also thank you for the video, i'll binge watch this tonight.

The European Union has a wall in Africa that seven layers thick, Israel has border walls, Berlin was divided by a wall up until the 1989. Walls are not relegated to the middle ages.

dragontamer 8y ago

> Berlin was divided by a wall up until the 1989 Ah yes. And the Republican President of the time was well known for saying, "Mr. Gorbachev... BUILD UP THIS WALL!!" You haven't picked exactly the best examples. In the USA, over 60% of our illegal immigrants are due to overstayed visas. The Wall does nothing for them. Another point: the #1 illegal immigrant in the USA is Canadians: a Mexian wall is on the wrong part of the country if you're most concerned about undocumented people. The thing we need, and something I'd support, is proper enforcement of our laws. Like employers who hire undocumented workers should be better punished.

mondo9000 8y ago
>> is proper enforcement of our laws 11 million illegal/undocumented in the USA, what does enforcement even mean at this point? If you punish the employers then the immigrants have to rely on the welfare system.
- dragontamer 8y ago
  > If you punish the employers then the immigrants have to rely on the welfare system. What? An undocumented immigrant by definition is missing their passport (or other papers). How exactly are they going to collect food-stamps, medicaid, or social security without documentation? You CAN'T collect food stamps ("SNAP" program) without a social security number. IIRC, green-card holders can apply, but you have to have all your documents in order. Its about the employers yo. They're a big piece of the puzzle. Undocumented people are generally allergic to going into government offices (they're worried about getting deported). In any case, the welfare system is generally closed to them. At best: some undocumented migrants rely upon their children (who may have been born in the USA, and are therefore citizens) to get food stamps. But I wouldn't necessarily call the welfare system (SNAP, Social Security, or Medicaid) open to undocumented people. As I said earlier: if you are serious about the problem, then you need to go after the employers.
  - yellowapple 8y ago
    Fraud (e.g. with a stolen SSN) is another option that's used in at least some cases. Probably nowhere near the majority of illegal immigrants are using fraudulent credentials, though.
    - masonic 8y ago
      It's quite common, to evade E-Verify. Mollie Tibbetts' killer used identity theft in this way, for one example.
  - rocopoly01 8y ago
    Great points. One of the easiest solutions - Everify (https://www.e-verify.gov/ https://www.e-verify.gov/) is voluntary. How is a system that is supposed to check eligibility voluntary? That's because employers and the Chamber of Commerce fought to keep it that way. Also, it is true, contrary to a common myth, you cannot get food stamps if you are an undocumented immigrant. See this article for more on this - https://foodstampsnow.com/can-permanent-residents-and-non-citizens-get-food-stamps/ https://foodstampsnow.com/can-permanent-residents-and-non-ci.... It's very hard to use fraudulent SSN to get food stamps because all the welfare programs share information check their data against other state and government database. It's not worth the risk and most undocumented immigrants know this. It's one sure way to have ICE at your door.
nkurz 8y ago
the #1 illegal immigrant in the USA is Canadians I don't think this is true. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting you? The quick searches I just did suggest that about half the illegal immigrants living in America are from Mexico. Here's an example: http://www.pewhispanic.org/2018/11/27/u-s-unauthorized-immigrant-total-dips-to-lowest-level-in-a-decade/ http://www.pewhispanic.org/2018/11/27/u-s-unauthorized-immig... It says that there are about 11 million "unauthorized" immigrants living in the US: 5.5 million from Mexico, 2.5 million from Central and South America, and only 500,000 (combined but not distinguished) from Europe and Canada.
masonic 8y ago
the #1 illegal immigrant in the USA is Canadians This is a flat lie.

orwin 8y ago

It's not a wall, and it's not seven layer everywhere. A wall is shooting yourself in the foot, seven layer is just the entry point. If you never went to gibraltar, please, please don't propagate false claims. Multiple videos exist that explain how the EU border there work, you can easely check if someone lied to you, so please do.

mondo9000 8y ago
I watched the vox video what's wrong with it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY_Yiu2U2Ts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY_Yiu2U2Ts
- orwin 8y ago
  This is actually a fairly accurate video (and it seems that it is worst than when i was there 15 years ago somehow, the ditch and the morrocan side fences are new). I don't like that some opinion were leaking through the depiction of facts (even if i have the same opinion) though, but i understand this is hard. You can see this not a wall (because you can't see through walls obviously), and that this is not effective without border security agent. Do you know that even with a see-through fence and cncrete floor, people were still able to dig themselves in? They though about creating an artificial underground river alongside a the time (it is probably replaced by the ditch now). They hired a team of engineer in the late 90s (or early 20s at least) to create a secure door system that won't force people from morocco who work there to wait unknown amount of time. If maquiladoras are still a thing, you might have to do the same. I don't think a wall is a good idea, but maybe US should try it. Please be accurate though, if you want to have an efficient border "wall", it should never be a wall, but a fence, and you should actually have border agent monitoring the fence at all time. Also thank you for the video, i'll binge watch this tonight.