9 ms·

Why do you think it will be a waste of money? What are the better solutions? Walls are typically effective, hence their ubiquity. I have yet to see a counter p

Why do you think it will be a waste of money? What are the better solutions? Walls are typically effective, hence their ubiquity. I have yet to see a counter proposal that would guarantee the long term security in implementation (read: something the next president can't just come in and yank out) that a wall provides. I'm not a fan of the wall, but it seems to me to be more effective than what most people give it credit.

acchow 8y ago
Aren't most "illegal immigrants" crossing the border legally (such as entering as a tourist) and then just never leaving?
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  I don't have hard data, but I'm pretty sure that the answer is no. The majority are crossing in an unauthorized manner, rather than crossing in an authorized manner and then overstaying the terms of their entry.
matt4077 8y ago
First of all, the problem as such does not exist: illegal border crossings are at there lowest in decades, and what remains is a stream of young, eager people as easily integrated into the economy as previous generations of (Irish/Italian/Jewish/etc) immigrants. And even if, serious conservatives point at far better uses for the money, such as shoring up the system of immigration judges.
- masonic 8y ago
  What price do you place on the lives of the victims? https://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/examples-serious-crimes-illegal-aliens https://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/examples-se...
dragontamer 8y ago
> Walls are typically effective, hence their ubiquity. What is this? The middle ages? Drug Dealers are buying drones for $1000 to smuggle cocaine into our country by air. 1-kilo of Cocaine makes $20,000 once it crosses the boarder, they can certainly afford $1000 drones. A concrete wall does literally nothing in the modern era. Spend it on radar, more men, and judges (judges to process all of those asylum seekers).
- mondo9000 8y ago
  The European Union has a wall in Africa that seven layers thick, Israel has border walls, Berlin was divided by a wall up until the 1989. Walls are not relegated to the middle ages.
  - dragontamer 8y ago
    > Berlin was divided by a wall up until the 1989 Ah yes. And the Republican President of the time was well known for saying, "Mr. Gorbachev... BUILD UP THIS WALL!!" You haven't picked exactly the best examples. In the USA, over 60% of our illegal immigrants are due to overstayed visas. The Wall does nothing for them. Another point: the #1 illegal immigrant in the USA is Canadians: a Mexian wall is on the wrong part of the country if you're most concerned about undocumented people. The thing we need, and something I'd support, is proper enforcement of our laws. Like employers who hire undocumented workers should be better punished.
    - mondo9000 8y ago
      >> is proper enforcement of our laws 11 million illegal/undocumented in the USA, what does enforcement even mean at this point? If you punish the employers then the immigrants have to rely on the welfare system.
      - dragontamer 8y ago
        > If you punish the employers then the immigrants have to rely on the welfare system. What? An undocumented immigrant by definition is missing their passport (or other papers). How exactly are they going to collect food-stamps, medicaid, or social security without documentation? You CAN'T collect food stamps ("SNAP" program) without a social security number. IIRC, green-card holders can apply, but you have to have all your documents in order. Its about the employers yo. They're a big piece of the puzzle. Undocumented people are generally allergic to going into government offices (they're worried about getting deported). In any case, the welfare system is generally closed to them. At best: some undocumented migrants rely upon their children (who may have been born in the USA, and are therefore citizens) to get food stamps. But I wouldn't necessarily call the welfare system (SNAP, Social Security, or Medicaid) open to undocumented people. As I said earlier: if you are serious about the problem, then you need to go after the employers.
orwin 8y ago
I've heard that most illegals arrested at the borders (airports too) or when detected are supposed to wait until judgment (hence cages last year i guess?), but the justice Dpt is so underfunded that it take a really long time to pass judgment, and people end up staying. It was in a meetup around 2015, a French man who overstayed his visa to launch his company in Florida (something about autofilling paperwork for tutition and taxes). He got arrested 6 month before the launch date, still launched the product in time, then paid a lawyer to get away since his first visa was tied to an abusive company. Why not giving those 5 Billion to accelerate those judgments, see what happens? I might be more effective. And if you think a wall is effective, you should see how gibraltar handle border security, and ask them why they don't just build a wall. It may be less true now than when i visited northern morocco in my teens, but i have the feeling than people in charge of border security there might be puzzled by the idea.

acchow 8y ago

Aren't most "illegal immigrants" crossing the border legally (such as entering as a tourist) and then just never leaving?

AnimalMuppet 8y ago
I don't have hard data, but I'm pretty sure that the answer is no. The majority are crossing in an unauthorized manner, rather than crossing in an authorized manner and then overstaying the terms of their entry.

matt4077 8y ago

First of all, the problem as such does not exist: illegal border crossings are at there lowest in decades, and what remains is a stream of young, eager people as easily integrated into the economy as previous generations of (Irish/Italian/Jewish/etc) immigrants. And even if, serious conservatives point at far better uses for the money, such as shoring up the system of immigration judges.

masonic 8y ago
What price do you place on the lives of the victims? https://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/examples-serious-crimes-illegal-aliens https://www.fairus.org/issue/illegal-immigration/examples-se...

dragontamer 8y ago

> Walls are typically effective, hence their ubiquity. What is this? The middle ages? Drug Dealers are buying drones for $1000 to smuggle cocaine into our country by air. 1-kilo of Cocaine makes $20,000 once it crosses the boarder, they can certainly afford $1000 drones. A concrete wall does literally nothing in the modern era. Spend it on radar, more men, and judges (judges to process all of those asylum seekers).

mondo9000 8y ago
The European Union has a wall in Africa that seven layers thick, Israel has border walls, Berlin was divided by a wall up until the 1989. Walls are not relegated to the middle ages.
- dragontamer 8y ago
  > Berlin was divided by a wall up until the 1989 Ah yes. And the Republican President of the time was well known for saying, "Mr. Gorbachev... BUILD UP THIS WALL!!" You haven't picked exactly the best examples. In the USA, over 60% of our illegal immigrants are due to overstayed visas. The Wall does nothing for them. Another point: the #1 illegal immigrant in the USA is Canadians: a Mexian wall is on the wrong part of the country if you're most concerned about undocumented people. The thing we need, and something I'd support, is proper enforcement of our laws. Like employers who hire undocumented workers should be better punished.
  - mondo9000 8y ago
    >> is proper enforcement of our laws 11 million illegal/undocumented in the USA, what does enforcement even mean at this point? If you punish the employers then the immigrants have to rely on the welfare system.
    - dragontamer 8y ago
      > If you punish the employers then the immigrants have to rely on the welfare system. What? An undocumented immigrant by definition is missing their passport (or other papers). How exactly are they going to collect food-stamps, medicaid, or social security without documentation? You CAN'T collect food stamps ("SNAP" program) without a social security number. IIRC, green-card holders can apply, but you have to have all your documents in order. Its about the employers yo. They're a big piece of the puzzle. Undocumented people are generally allergic to going into government offices (they're worried about getting deported). In any case, the welfare system is generally closed to them. At best: some undocumented migrants rely upon their children (who may have been born in the USA, and are therefore citizens) to get food stamps. But I wouldn't necessarily call the welfare system (SNAP, Social Security, or Medicaid) open to undocumented people. As I said earlier: if you are serious about the problem, then you need to go after the employers.

orwin 8y ago

I've heard that most illegals arrested at the borders (airports too) or when detected are supposed to wait until judgment (hence cages last year i guess?), but the justice Dpt is so underfunded that it take a really long time to pass judgment, and people end up staying. It was in a meetup around 2015, a French man who overstayed his visa to launch his company in Florida (something about autofilling paperwork for tutition and taxes). He got arrested 6 month before the launch date, still launched the product in time, then paid a lawyer to get away since his first visa was tied to an abusive company. Why not giving those 5 Billion to accelerate those judgments, see what happens? I might be more effective. And if you think a wall is effective, you should see how gibraltar handle border security, and ask them why they don't just build a wall. It may be less true now than when i visited northern morocco in my teens, but i have the feeling than people in charge of border security there might be puzzled by the idea.