5 ms·

Negotiating with hostage takers never makes sense.

nightski 8y ago
Unfortunately that is the stance both sides are taking right now.
manfredo 8y ago
Which is also the stated reason why Trump isn't negotiating with Democrats. Both Democrats and Republicans have the ability to end the shutdown, so both sides can accuse the other of hostage taking. Of course, the real problem I see is that the whole budget needs to be renewed by Congress and the Executive, rather than just approving changes in the budget. Makes more sense to me that we vote on the delta. But I guess a lot about US politics doesn't make sense.
- phailhaus 8y ago
  The difference is that Democrats and the GOP were on the verge of passing the CR until Trump changed his mind and refused to sign. In this case it is very clear that the GOP shoulders the blame for the shutdown.
assblaster 8y ago
Shouldn't Pelosi be considered the hostage taker by essentially denying funding for the single biggest promise to the electorate made during the 2016 election? It seems more like subversion by Pelosi.
- shereadsthenews 8y ago
  The promise as I recall was that Mexico was paying. In any case the constitution is clear that spending originates from the House not the White House. Several continuing resolutions have passed and the President should sign one.
- cc81 8y ago
  Why didn't they build it earlier when Republicans was in full control?
  - assblaster 8y ago
    The US Senate needs 60 votes to pass this kind of legislation/funding, and Republicans didn't have 60 votes in the Senate because moderate Democrats were prevented from voting for it by minority leader Chuck Schumer.
    - orwin 8y ago
      Your Senate works weirdly, why a 60% majority is needed for budget allocation? Do you have a link that explain that well (if possible non-partisan link)?
      - dragontamer 8y ago
        60% of the vote is needed to end the debate on a subject. If 41 Senators continue to debate, the vote will never hit the floor. The technique in modern times is to have 41 Senators endlessly debate ideas they don't like. This is called a Filibuster.
      - jedberg 8y ago
        It's not correct. Only 50% is needed. But 60% is needed to break a filibuster (which used to be when a Senator literally just keeps talking until the bill is dead, but now is just procedural). The assumption is that in our current environment, there will always be a filibuster on a budget bill, so you need 60 votes to make sure you can break the filibuster.
        orwin 8y ago
        Oh, this is why filibusters aren't done all the time. This is weird to allow that for a budget vote though, since budget is more about the executive part of the government than legislative. Thank you.
    - 8y ago
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- omegaworks 8y ago
  "The electorate" did not choose Donald Trump or his promises. The electorate chose the other candidate by a count of over 3 million. The Electoral College and the electorate are two very different things.
  - LyndsySimon 8y ago
    The Electoral College is the electorate for the Presidency.
    - omegaworks 8y ago
      There is then no mandate that Speaker Pelosi take into account the demands of this synthetic "electorate." She is doing her job as a representative by opposing the popularly opposed demands of the president.
- phailhaus 8y ago
  No, because the funding wasn't demanded until the 11th hour. Congress was on the verge of passing a clean CR with bipartisan support until Trump caved to conservative media pressure and suddenly refused to sign. He also took the blame for the shutdown on live TV. Trump wasn't able to negotiate for the funding in the two years that his party has control, and now he's taken the government hostage for it.
pastor_elm 8y ago
worked out for Obama in 2013.
sremani 8y ago
Honestly, in a real hostage takers situation, you negotiate and negotiate so much they lose the will to hold. Here is an interesting book about it, https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/0062872303/ref=tmm_mmp_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1547675465&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-De... So your nugget of wisdom is actually bad advice in real world, wrong analogy when arguing about separation of powers and checks and balances.
- kingofpandora 8y ago
  Serious comment: I assume this advice holds when the hostage taker has no means of escape but perhaps is less applicable when their location is not known? In the latter case, negotiation is probably still a good option but for different reasons.
  - atomi 8y ago
    Capitulating would be a bad precedent.
    - hellisothers 8y ago
      I initially read that as “bad president”

Unfortunately that is the stance both sides are taking right now.

Which is also the stated reason why Trump isn't negotiating with Democrats. Both Democrats and Republicans have the ability to end the shutdown, so both sides can accuse the other of hostage taking. Of course, the real problem I see is that the whole budget needs to be renewed by Congress and the Executive, rather than just approving changes in the budget. Makes more sense to me that we vote on the delta. But I guess a lot about US politics doesn't make sense.

phailhaus 8y ago
The difference is that Democrats and the GOP were on the verge of passing the CR until Trump changed his mind and refused to sign. In this case it is very clear that the GOP shoulders the blame for the shutdown.

assblaster 8y ago

Shouldn't Pelosi be considered the hostage taker by essentially denying funding for the single biggest promise to the electorate made during the 2016 election? It seems more like subversion by Pelosi.

shereadsthenews 8y ago
The promise as I recall was that Mexico was paying. In any case the constitution is clear that spending originates from the House not the White House. Several continuing resolutions have passed and the President should sign one.
cc81 8y ago
Why didn't they build it earlier when Republicans was in full control?
- assblaster 8y ago
  The US Senate needs 60 votes to pass this kind of legislation/funding, and Republicans didn't have 60 votes in the Senate because moderate Democrats were prevented from voting for it by minority leader Chuck Schumer.
  - orwin 8y ago
    Your Senate works weirdly, why a 60% majority is needed for budget allocation? Do you have a link that explain that well (if possible non-partisan link)?
    - dragontamer 8y ago
      60% of the vote is needed to end the debate on a subject. If 41 Senators continue to debate, the vote will never hit the floor. The technique in modern times is to have 41 Senators endlessly debate ideas they don't like. This is called a Filibuster.
    - jedberg 8y ago
      It's not correct. Only 50% is needed. But 60% is needed to break a filibuster (which used to be when a Senator literally just keeps talking until the bill is dead, but now is just procedural). The assumption is that in our current environment, there will always be a filibuster on a budget bill, so you need 60 votes to make sure you can break the filibuster.
      - orwin 8y ago
        Oh, this is why filibusters aren't done all the time. This is weird to allow that for a budget vote though, since budget is more about the executive part of the government than legislative. Thank you.
  - 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
omegaworks 8y ago
"The electorate" did not choose Donald Trump or his promises. The electorate chose the other candidate by a count of over 3 million. The Electoral College and the electorate are two very different things.
- LyndsySimon 8y ago
  The Electoral College is the electorate for the Presidency.
  - omegaworks 8y ago
    There is then no mandate that Speaker Pelosi take into account the demands of this synthetic "electorate." She is doing her job as a representative by opposing the popularly opposed demands of the president.
phailhaus 8y ago
No, because the funding wasn't demanded until the 11th hour. Congress was on the verge of passing a clean CR with bipartisan support until Trump caved to conservative media pressure and suddenly refused to sign. He also took the blame for the shutdown on live TV. Trump wasn't able to negotiate for the funding in the two years that his party has control, and now he's taken the government hostage for it.

pastor_elm 8y ago

worked out for Obama in 2013.

sremani 8y ago

Honestly, in a real hostage takers situation, you negotiate and negotiate so much they lose the will to hold. Here is an interesting book about it, https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-Depended/dp/0062872303/ref=tmm_mmp_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1547675465&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-Negotiating-De... So your nugget of wisdom is actually bad advice in real world, wrong analogy when arguing about separation of powers and checks and balances.

kingofpandora 8y ago
Serious comment: I assume this advice holds when the hostage taker has no means of escape but perhaps is less applicable when their location is not known? In the latter case, negotiation is probably still a good option but for different reasons.
- atomi 8y ago
  Capitulating would be a bad precedent.
  - hellisothers 8y ago
    I initially read that as “bad president”