4 ms·

The problem with identity in the USA has always been a religious problem more than anything else. All legislation aimed around allowing people to be identified

The problem with identity in the USA has always been a religious problem more than anything else. All legislation aimed around allowing people to be identified by numbers has been killed due to the whole "mark of the beast" .. "can't buy sell or trade without your number" revelations rhetoric. As religion has less of an impact on people's daily lives, I expect this to change, but in the past it's been the one thing that's always prevented proper identity management in the USA. I am curious to know though, if there are other countries that don't identify their citizens with a public id number?

TheOperator 8y ago
If its primarily a religious problem why do countries less religious than the US have similar concepts? SINs in Canada, NINs in the UK, etc. etc
- toweringgoat 8y ago
  NIN is rarely used in the UK. You need one for student financing... and later for your employer to correctly relay your taxes to HMRC. Certainly it's not needed for banks/credit cards/phones/brokerages/etc.
  - kurtisc 8y ago
    The last time I opened a bank account in the UK involved me sitting in a bank employee's office with two forms of proof of identity and proof of income. I could have used my birth certificate for one but AFAIK the second would cost money.
- richardw 8y ago
  ID number in South Africa. Assigned at birth, used for opening of any account. Not considered private at all, can be requested by any company who might want to check that you are you. Also: ID card with number, photo and details on it, separate from drivers license.
  - bjelkeman-again 8y ago
    More or less the same in Sweden.
- bobwaycott 8y ago
  The parent means implementing national IDs provokes religious opposition in the US.
nradov 8y ago
Religious concerns were only a minor factor. Other objections to having a national identifier include: wasteful "big government" spending, encroachment on states' rights, potential for civil liberties abuses, and lack of consensus over whether it's a real problem that needs to be solved. I don't necessarily agree with those objections but there have been multiple reasons.
darkpuma 8y ago
>"All legislation aimed around allowing people to be identified by numbers has been killed due to the whole "mark of the beast" .. "can't buy sell or trade without your number" revelations rhetoric." This is easy to solve; simply make it illegal to use the identification number so capriciously. Define a narrow use-case for it, narrow enough to allay religious fears, and forbid anything other use if the ID number. Make it illegal to require customers to provide their ID number while making purchases, etc. But once you do that, most of the desire to implement the system starts to disappear...
- tetrep 8y ago
  > This is easy to solve; simply make it illegal to use the identification number so capriciously. Hmmmmm, that sounds familiar... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number#/media/File:Social_security_card.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number#/media/... While it wasn't law, I don't see why legislature wouldn't renege on their promise to not use a unique identifier, already conveniently assigned to all people, for identification purposes.
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    Yes that's what I had in mind. It worked that time too, the general public accepted SSNs. Maybe it's cynical, but I don't believe there is any limit on how many times you can lie to the public. There's only a limit to the frequency.
  - gknoy 8y ago
    > a unique identifier, already conveniently assigned to all people, for identification purposes One problem is that it's not unique. :)
toomanybeersies 8y ago
Australia doesn't have a national ID number, and neither does New Zealand. You have a TFN [1] (tax file number) in Australia, which are similar to an SSN, except somewhat more limited. My TFN is only used for income tax, not for identification, and I'm not actually legally required to supply it to anybody, even my employer (although it does make paying taxes a real pain as they withhold the maximum amount). You aren't even legally required to have a TFN, although once you get one you have it for life, and without one you pay the maximum income tax. TFNs are specifically forbidden to be used for anything other than income or benefit purposes too. Businesses aren't allowed to ask for it as a form of ID. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_file_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_file_number
cheeseomlit 8y ago
I'm not a Christian, but those concerns are not without merit. It's a slippery slope to "the only way we can eliminate identity theft is to use biometric authentication via implanted chips to validate financial transactions"

TheOperator 8y ago

If its primarily a religious problem why do countries less religious than the US have similar concepts? SINs in Canada, NINs in the UK, etc. etc

toweringgoat 8y ago
NIN is rarely used in the UK. You need one for student financing... and later for your employer to correctly relay your taxes to HMRC. Certainly it's not needed for banks/credit cards/phones/brokerages/etc.
- kurtisc 8y ago
  The last time I opened a bank account in the UK involved me sitting in a bank employee's office with two forms of proof of identity and proof of income. I could have used my birth certificate for one but AFAIK the second would cost money.
richardw 8y ago
ID number in South Africa. Assigned at birth, used for opening of any account. Not considered private at all, can be requested by any company who might want to check that you are you. Also: ID card with number, photo and details on it, separate from drivers license.
- bjelkeman-again 8y ago
  More or less the same in Sweden.
bobwaycott 8y ago
The parent means implementing national IDs provokes religious opposition in the US.

nradov 8y ago

Religious concerns were only a minor factor. Other objections to having a national identifier include: wasteful "big government" spending, encroachment on states' rights, potential for civil liberties abuses, and lack of consensus over whether it's a real problem that needs to be solved. I don't necessarily agree with those objections but there have been multiple reasons.

darkpuma 8y ago

>"All legislation aimed around allowing people to be identified by numbers has been killed due to the whole "mark of the beast" .. "can't buy sell or trade without your number" revelations rhetoric." This is easy to solve; simply make it illegal to use the identification number so capriciously. Define a narrow use-case for it, narrow enough to allay religious fears, and forbid anything other use if the ID number. Make it illegal to require customers to provide their ID number while making purchases, etc. But once you do that, most of the desire to implement the system starts to disappear...

tetrep 8y ago
> This is easy to solve; simply make it illegal to use the identification number so capriciously. Hmmmmm, that sounds familiar... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number#/media/File:Social_security_card.gif https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_number#/media/... While it wasn't law, I don't see why legislature wouldn't renege on their promise to not use a unique identifier, already conveniently assigned to all people, for identification purposes.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  Yes that's what I had in mind. It worked that time too, the general public accepted SSNs. Maybe it's cynical, but I don't believe there is any limit on how many times you can lie to the public. There's only a limit to the frequency.
- gknoy 8y ago
  > a unique identifier, already conveniently assigned to all people, for identification purposes One problem is that it's not unique. :)

toomanybeersies 8y ago

Australia doesn't have a national ID number, and neither does New Zealand. You have a TFN [1] (tax file number) in Australia, which are similar to an SSN, except somewhat more limited. My TFN is only used for income tax, not for identification, and I'm not actually legally required to supply it to anybody, even my employer (although it does make paying taxes a real pain as they withhold the maximum amount). You aren't even legally required to have a TFN, although once you get one you have it for life, and without one you pay the maximum income tax. TFNs are specifically forbidden to be used for anything other than income or benefit purposes too. Businesses aren't allowed to ask for it as a form of ID. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_file_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_file_number

cheeseomlit 8y ago

I'm not a Christian, but those concerns are not without merit. It's a slippery slope to "the only way we can eliminate identity theft is to use biometric authentication via implanted chips to validate financial transactions"