6 ms·

That is kind of creepy indeed. In my country you are allowed to video tape inside your own home and I assume that right extends even if you rent it out temporar

That is kind of creepy indeed. In my country you are allowed to video tape inside your own home and I assume that right extends even if you rent it out temporarily. I guess far from every host does this, I would even say it's probably very rare. But maybe there is a reason to stay in a hotel after all ;)

7Z7 8y ago
In general privacy law seem to work under the "expectation of privacy", which is why you see signs warning of security cameras or monitors showing what they see. In a rented room scenario, you obviously have an expectation of privacy up until someone tells you explicitly that there are cameras in the space, at which point I guess you can decide whether or not you want to stay there. So in this case (and depending on local laws, obviously) it seems like the renter would have to convince a judge that the photo of the room with a white blob in the corner was enough notice to circumvent that expectation of privacy.
- rjzzleep 8y ago
  I recently stayed in an AirBnB in Hamburg/Germany. Not only did he write that it's not a hostel everywhere. He used his smart home to keep the temperature below the legal limit and had all internals checked setup with cameras without any information. From the way he talked he also checked whether you exited the shower(not literally the shower, but the bathroom). He also had Bottles of sausages and would check through the camera who used them without paying. He also charged 50 cents for those coffee pads and used the camera to check on it. When I asked him to turn on the heater he lied to AirBnB on the phone(which they recorded) and then assaulted me and kicked me out. His one listing was removed temporarily but his other listings are still there. So yeah, even a hostel would have been better. Edit: the response from AirBnB was way better than the response from German authorities, but that may have been because they heard everything on the phone.
  - detaro 8y ago
    I seriously hope you reported this to the authorities and not just AirBnB?
    - rjzzleep 8y ago
      It's Germany, and I have dark hair. When I went to file a police report the tall blonde police officer, he and his colleagues were mocking me in the back. I ended up telling them off and will report it to the tax office. Which, while nasty seems to be only thing that will get that guy into trouble, Police at least doesn't care even though he violates a dozen laws including standard German privacy practice.
      - anc84 8y ago
        I am calling bullshit. There is very little chance that German police in Hamburg would not consider those alligations serious. Lots of Germans have black hair. Few Germans are tall and blonde. German police will file your case in any case.
        rjzzleep 8y ago
        I guess you don't have a lot of experience with the police here. This is actually very common. Whether you have dark hair or not, the former just makes it more likely. What I learned is that by law they're supposed to do that job. However, the general recommendation is not to go to the police, but rather to write the complaint to the DAs office[1]. Not only is a complaint to the DA office generally more fruitful they also immediately give you a reference number, which is more valuable than what most police officers will give you when you file a complaint there. I'm going to contact the DPO yes, but I don't have any expectations. I'm not a big fan of Casper actually, his last legal publication is about animal rights. The SH DPO is way better efficient and faster at decisions. The line up is two ladies leading it, one of them with a technical background(computer scientist) and the other one a lawyer[2]. I work in German government, and we even tried to pay SH to get feedback(something they won't do). That's why I was surprised when the Hamburg DPO received praise at the 35C3, since that's not inline with what I've seen from them at all. [1] https://www.unternehmer.de/recht-gesetze/122808-so-erstatten-sie-professionell-anzeige-teil-i https://www.unternehmer.de/recht-gesetze/122808-so-erstatten... [2] https://www.datenschutzzentrum.de/ueber-uns/ https://www.datenschutzzentrum.de/ueber-uns/
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    The legal temperature limit for what? For paid accommodation, for hotels? What is that limit; what law is it in?
    - rjzzleep 8y ago
      It's Germany, livable space has to be at least 20 degrees Celsius(68F). He has summer blankets in the room with spare blankets and tries to charge 1.5 Euro per extra blanket.
      - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
        Is that limit applicable domestically - like would children be able to enforce it against a carer/parent. Or does it only apply to commercial arrangements? Do you get to demand 20degC at work? 20degC is a bit hot for my liking, 18 degC as a minimum, perhaps - one should expect to wear a jumper in Winter.
        detaro 8y ago
        > Do you get to demand 20degC at work? Yes, if it's office work or other work without physical activity. Limits are lower for more active work. (and of course special rules exist for environments where working in cooler/cooled rooms is required)
      - anc84 8y ago
        Are you refering to the obligations of long-term rental landlords? I don't see that having much legal relevance to short-term rent like Airbnb.
- mscasts 8y ago
  Well in Sweden (which is where I live), at least one case I know of where I man video taped him having sex with women in his apartment didn't get any repercussions for it since it's perfectly legal to film someone in your own home without them knowing about it. It is illegal however, to share that film without consent or video tape outside the apartment. You can video tape with your camera moving around in a public space without permission, but same here you cannot share it online or something like that. I agree with these rulings and I think it should indeed be legal to video tape inside your own home. It's very illogical if that wasn't the case.
  - timc3 8y ago
    I think they changed the law a year or so ago so that would now be illegal.
    - mscasts 8y ago
      Really, I haven't heard anything about that?
pluma 8y ago
If you're in the EU it does not. You can record anything you want in the privacy of your home but if you record other people, they need to consent to it. The reasoning described in the article "but there's a camera in the picture of the room so you agreed to it" certainly wouldn't hold up under any interpretation of the GDPR. Also even if it's your home, if you rent it out, that's a commercial activity even if it's your personal residence.
- alkonaut 8y ago
  Also, if you have a clearly visible camera, I as a guest would cover it up the second I see it, and uncover it when I move out. I realize not everyone wants to adapt their home by tearing down theeir own cameras but they can power them down and have a post it note next to it saying "this is part of my alarm system but it's disconnected when AirBnB guests stay here, feel free to put this note note over the lens if you like /host". If you have a hidden camera and someone found it, the reviews wouldn't be good for business.
- mscasts 8y ago
  I live in the EU (Sweden) and here it's definately legal to record a video of someone in your own apartment. With or without their consent.
  - pluma 8y ago
    I doubt the latter part is entirely true, especially post-GDPR. Privacy law always depends on the balance between legitimate interest and personal rights. Also this article from 2013 seems to indicate that while it was legal to film people in private at some point that already changed before the GDPR: https://www.pcworld.com/article/2040434/secretly-shooting-videos-and-photos-in-private-settings-criminalized-in-sweden.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/2040434/secretly-shooting-vi...
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
Your guests and family have an expectation of privacy IMO, unless you inform them otherwise. So, I wouldn't be surprised if your general right to video record activity at home was curtailed heavily. The ECHR clause on right to private family life would certainly seem to curtail your rights (by giving rights to family/friends).

7Z7 8y ago

In general privacy law seem to work under the "expectation of privacy", which is why you see signs warning of security cameras or monitors showing what they see. In a rented room scenario, you obviously have an expectation of privacy up until someone tells you explicitly that there are cameras in the space, at which point I guess you can decide whether or not you want to stay there. So in this case (and depending on local laws, obviously) it seems like the renter would have to convince a judge that the photo of the room with a white blob in the corner was enough notice to circumvent that expectation of privacy.

rjzzleep 8y ago
I recently stayed in an AirBnB in Hamburg/Germany. Not only did he write that it's not a hostel everywhere. He used his smart home to keep the temperature below the legal limit and had all internals checked setup with cameras without any information. From the way he talked he also checked whether you exited the shower(not literally the shower, but the bathroom). He also had Bottles of sausages and would check through the camera who used them without paying. He also charged 50 cents for those coffee pads and used the camera to check on it. When I asked him to turn on the heater he lied to AirBnB on the phone(which they recorded) and then assaulted me and kicked me out. His one listing was removed temporarily but his other listings are still there. So yeah, even a hostel would have been better. Edit: the response from AirBnB was way better than the response from German authorities, but that may have been because they heard everything on the phone.
- detaro 8y ago
  I seriously hope you reported this to the authorities and not just AirBnB?
  - rjzzleep 8y ago
    It's Germany, and I have dark hair. When I went to file a police report the tall blonde police officer, he and his colleagues were mocking me in the back. I ended up telling them off and will report it to the tax office. Which, while nasty seems to be only thing that will get that guy into trouble, Police at least doesn't care even though he violates a dozen laws including standard German privacy practice.
    - anc84 8y ago
      I am calling bullshit. There is very little chance that German police in Hamburg would not consider those alligations serious. Lots of Germans have black hair. Few Germans are tall and blonde. German police will file your case in any case.
      - rjzzleep 8y ago
        I guess you don't have a lot of experience with the police here. This is actually very common. Whether you have dark hair or not, the former just makes it more likely. What I learned is that by law they're supposed to do that job. However, the general recommendation is not to go to the police, but rather to write the complaint to the DAs office[1]. Not only is a complaint to the DA office generally more fruitful they also immediately give you a reference number, which is more valuable than what most police officers will give you when you file a complaint there. I'm going to contact the DPO yes, but I don't have any expectations. I'm not a big fan of Casper actually, his last legal publication is about animal rights. The SH DPO is way better efficient and faster at decisions. The line up is two ladies leading it, one of them with a technical background(computer scientist) and the other one a lawyer[2]. I work in German government, and we even tried to pay SH to get feedback(something they won't do). That's why I was surprised when the Hamburg DPO received praise at the 35C3, since that's not inline with what I've seen from them at all. [1] https://www.unternehmer.de/recht-gesetze/122808-so-erstatten-sie-professionell-anzeige-teil-i https://www.unternehmer.de/recht-gesetze/122808-so-erstatten... [2] https://www.datenschutzzentrum.de/ueber-uns/ https://www.datenschutzzentrum.de/ueber-uns/
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  The legal temperature limit for what? For paid accommodation, for hotels? What is that limit; what law is it in?
  - rjzzleep 8y ago
    It's Germany, livable space has to be at least 20 degrees Celsius(68F). He has summer blankets in the room with spare blankets and tries to charge 1.5 Euro per extra blanket.
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      Is that limit applicable domestically - like would children be able to enforce it against a carer/parent. Or does it only apply to commercial arrangements? Do you get to demand 20degC at work? 20degC is a bit hot for my liking, 18 degC as a minimum, perhaps - one should expect to wear a jumper in Winter.
      - detaro 8y ago
        > Do you get to demand 20degC at work? Yes, if it's office work or other work without physical activity. Limits are lower for more active work. (and of course special rules exist for environments where working in cooler/cooled rooms is required)
    - anc84 8y ago
      Are you refering to the obligations of long-term rental landlords? I don't see that having much legal relevance to short-term rent like Airbnb.
mscasts 8y ago
Well in Sweden (which is where I live), at least one case I know of where I man video taped him having sex with women in his apartment didn't get any repercussions for it since it's perfectly legal to film someone in your own home without them knowing about it. It is illegal however, to share that film without consent or video tape outside the apartment. You can video tape with your camera moving around in a public space without permission, but same here you cannot share it online or something like that. I agree with these rulings and I think it should indeed be legal to video tape inside your own home. It's very illogical if that wasn't the case.
- timc3 8y ago
  I think they changed the law a year or so ago so that would now be illegal.
  - mscasts 8y ago
    Really, I haven't heard anything about that?

pluma 8y ago

If you're in the EU it does not. You can record anything you want in the privacy of your home but if you record other people, they need to consent to it. The reasoning described in the article "but there's a camera in the picture of the room so you agreed to it" certainly wouldn't hold up under any interpretation of the GDPR. Also even if it's your home, if you rent it out, that's a commercial activity even if it's your personal residence.

alkonaut 8y ago
Also, if you have a clearly visible camera, I as a guest would cover it up the second I see it, and uncover it when I move out. I realize not everyone wants to adapt their home by tearing down theeir own cameras but they can power them down and have a post it note next to it saying "this is part of my alarm system but it's disconnected when AirBnB guests stay here, feel free to put this note note over the lens if you like /host". If you have a hidden camera and someone found it, the reviews wouldn't be good for business.
mscasts 8y ago
I live in the EU (Sweden) and here it's definately legal to record a video of someone in your own apartment. With or without their consent.
- pluma 8y ago
  I doubt the latter part is entirely true, especially post-GDPR. Privacy law always depends on the balance between legitimate interest and personal rights. Also this article from 2013 seems to indicate that while it was legal to film people in private at some point that already changed before the GDPR: https://www.pcworld.com/article/2040434/secretly-shooting-videos-and-photos-in-private-settings-criminalized-in-sweden.html https://www.pcworld.com/article/2040434/secretly-shooting-vi...

pbhjpbhj 8y ago

Your guests and family have an expectation of privacy IMO, unless you inform them otherwise. So, I wouldn't be surprised if your general right to video record activity at home was curtailed heavily. The ECHR clause on right to private family life would certainly seem to curtail your rights (by giving rights to family/friends).