11 ms·

De-Suckafying Apple’s Butterfly Keyboard

63 points by x0054 8y ago

geophile 8y ago
I've owned MBPs for over ten years. But my mid-2015 15" MBP ("peak MBP") is giving out, and I need a replacement. It won't be another MBP, because of the keyboard regressions -- the butterfly keyboard, and the touchbar. Thinking about a System 76 Galago.
- zitterbewegung 8y ago
  I wouldn’t recommend system 76 all they are doing is putting Linux on a Clevo. You would be much better off with a dell laptop.
  - geophile 8y ago
    What’s wrong with clevo? I’ve heard bad things about dell quality. And wasn’t impressed with the dells I’ve owned, although that was years ago.
    - zitterbewegung 8y ago
      Sorry , should have said you might as well buy direct I bet you can get it cheaper. I dealt with a friends clevo that stopped working after two years .
    - Octoth0rpe 8y ago
      > I’ve heard bad things about dell quality. The thing I'd say about Dell is that they're like Ikea in that they produce a wide variety of products at a wide variety of price points. High end Dells (XPS, Precision) IME have good to excellent quality. Lower end dells (inspiron) have mediocre quality as pretty good prices. If you're paying very little for a dell, don't expect it to last. If you're paying a lot for your Dell, it _will_ last. I'm still using a 10yo precision tower and everything about it is great. 13" dell xps w/ Ubuntu would be on the list of Dells that I would trust to be of high quality.
- giancarlostoro 8y ago
  I felt the same, but I went with a Surface Book 2 instead, I love this thing. Pretty sweet keyboard and I can get as Unix friendly as I need to with MobaXterm (use it for X forwarding) and WSL. I have an ASUS Laptop with Linux on it for my pure Linux itch and I still got a Macbook Air. I was ticket off that the Macbook came back and the Air looks more like a Macbook than the Macbook, they should swap names (I've said this too many times) between the products. Anyway, I love my SB2, and my only regret is not being able to somehow know they were going to release it in Black a few months later. I await the SB3 and will buy it in Black if they offer it. Another option for you might be Dell. The Dell XPS is a sweet looking laptop, I haven't had the pleasure yet though.
  - izacus 8y ago
    I've been looking at one of these and the only thing that worries me is the hinge - it looks like the laptop is "fat" at the hinge part instead of closing together snugly. Is that a problem when carrying it around in comparison to a mac? Is it an annoyance?
    - imandride 8y ago
      I have had the Surface Book 1 since launch and the hinge still work like the day I bought it. Come to think of it I haven't heard any complaints about the hinge at all.
    - apk-d 8y ago
      I've been carrying around my SB2 15" in my backpack's laptop pocket for about half a year. Here's the summary. - Zero problem with the fatness on my end. Looks kinda sexy tbh. - The keyboard is really good about from the fn key which acts as a toggle (if you don't combo it with another key). Can never get quite used to that. - The body paint can get scratched and worn down if you're reckless. - The hinge itself works fine ~~~97% of the time. Occasionally gets stuck (can't detach) for unknown reason requiring a reboot or two, or some dirt gets in the way of the connectors and it thinks it got detached when you move it around. - Battery life feels somewhat disappointing, but I haven't done rigorous tests. If you're planning to use the gpu, you better bring that charger. - The gpu gets thermally throttled pretty easily. - Performance at the 4k-ish resolution can be disappointing depending on the app (even the browser). This gets worse if you add an external monitor or if you don't run it above the "recommended" performance level. Unfortunately most devs (including MS) seem to optimize for 1920x1080. - My SB seems to have problems with WMR even with the official adapter (display goes black occasionally). - There's a driver (?) bug with the screen brightness sometimes being too low. I've filed a report on the feedback thing, but I'm not seeing or expecting any response. Love the screen (and the width\height ratio) otherwise. Overall, it's a decent and interesting machine, but the edges can be rough.
- deleted 8y ago
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- ordinaryradical 8y ago
  I'm in the same boat and will need to switch once my 2015 dies, but I really don't want to have to switch from MacOS. 90% of my work depends on the keyboard and I can't stand the response of the butterfly switches, it's like typing on a piece of glass. Do I have to hackintosh may way back in?
  - bavariancake 8y ago
    Yes. Join us on the dark side. https://github.com/bavariancake/XPS9570-macOS https://github.com/bavariancake/XPS9570-macOS I still have my 2012 MBPr, but I’m really liking the keyboard on the XPS 15.
    - ordinaryradical 8y ago
      Is it futz intensive? How far away from "it just works" are you?
      - bavariancake 8y ago
        Initially there was a lot of futzing, because the hardware just came out (UHD 630 Intel graphics). Some things like Nvidia graphics and SD card reader won’t work because of missing drivers, and are unlikely to work in the future. That said, I use this setup every day and mostly forget it’s not a Mac. I was quite frustrated by the new Touch Bar Macs issued by my work (unpleasant keyboard, no real F keys, USB C only, flimsy back case that has dents in it from regular commuting use somehow), so I didn’t see that as a viable upgrade path for me since I like to keep my computers for 5+ years. That’s probably not very convincing, but for me it was the right choice. For what’s its worth, I intend to support the XPS 9570 as a Hackintosh platform until at least 2023.
- shimms 8y ago
  > It won't be another MBP, because of the keyboard regressions Have you tried the third generation butterfly on the 2018 MBP and MBA? I hate with a passion the first two attempts at the butterfly keyboard, but the third gen I actually enjoy using.
  - woolvalley 8y ago
    Although it is nicer, even the 3rd gen keyboards have reports of keys sticking and breaking. I've never had to worry about my laptop keyboard breaking before I got a butterfly keyboard macbook from work.
    - shimms 8y ago
      That’s true - my first gen MacBook a couple of years ago was replaced three times. My MBA is only a few weeks old, and I’ve noticed the space bar feels different already on the right hand side. Not sure if it’s real or imagined yet, but based on past experience, I’m concerned it may very well be dodgy. I really do want to think they’ve ironed these issues out, but I admit I wouldn’t be surprised to find myself at the Genius Bar a few times with this new one getting it replaced as well.
  - rconti 8y ago
    I had my first MBP butterfly keyboard failing with a spec of dust or something. At my new job, new MBP, no such problem -- but I'm mixed on replacing my (personal) 2011 MBA with a 2018 MBA because of the keyboard and USB port and SD card reader regression. Tried a 2018 MBA at the apple store -- I didn't realized they changed the keyboard, but it's definitely better. I don't hate the keyboard on my 2018 MBP but its.. not great. I just rarely use it; I typically have my computer plugged into external keyboard/monitor.
  - bluedino 8y ago
    I have had each model year revision since 2015 Retina Macbook, and it's not so much the keys themselves but the fact that the keys are basically flush with the case which bothers me the most.
- pbrb 8y ago
  I went with an x1 carbon. Dual boot linux (ubuntu with plasma desktop) and couldn't be happier.
- dkhenry 8y ago
  I was in the exact same situation late last year, and I went with a X1 Carbon 6th Generation. It has been fantastic. Everything just works, and it has probably the best keyboard I have ever used on a laptop
  - TomVDB 8y ago
    Just 2 days ago, I spent 2 hours researching alternatives for my mid-2012 MBPr 15 and had settled on an X1 Carbon as well. How's the trackpad? How's sleep mode if you use it with Linux? I'm still on the fence, but I ordered an iFixit battery replacement kit for the MBP. After almost 7 years (!), it still has everything I need except for the fact that it randomly shuts down when the battery is at 60%...
    - dkhenry 8y ago
      My trackpad works well, as does the trackpad of everyone else at my company that I have ordered them for, however I have been told they had different suppliers for some of the X1's and a few people have complained that the trackpad and nubbin won't work at the same time. Sleep mode works great, there is a bios setting for Linux which by default is set to Windows 10, once you set it to linux deep sleep works just by closing the lid, and it resumes as expected. I do use it with Linux, I have Ubuntu 18.04 running on it and it works great. usb-c charging it amazing, and it works great with my usb-c monitor ( lets me have a single cable to connect everything to the laptop and to charge the laptop ) Battery life is fantastic, the only thing I have to get used to is the CPU in it can burn a lot of battery if you are running it at full load for an extended period of time. When I am running lots of containers on kubernetes it can burn down the battery in a few hours.
    - rdoherty 8y ago
      I've had an X1 Carbon for a few months, coming from a 2015 MBP. Track pad is pretty bad compared to a MacBook. Everything else is very good. I got the high res screen too and it is comparable to a retina display IMHO. I've installed Ubuntu 18 with 0 problems. Sleep works fine, haven't had any issues with wake up. You do need to install some custom software and change a BIOS setting for it to use 'Linux' sleep mode (or something like that). Battery life is 'pretty good', not exceptional like MBPs, but definitely in the 6hr range. Overall I'd recommend a X1 Carbon, especially since you will spend nearly $1k less on the comparable specs.
- sorahn 8y ago
  I was just looking at some of the 2015 refurbs on amazon. Not bad. I have a 2018 at work, and I hate the keyboard. I'm either gonna grab the highest spec 2015 when mine dies, or just use my work laptop until the next generation. I'm not interested in shelling out for a new personal laptop with these keyboards. :(
  - nickm12 8y ago
    I just bought two 2015 refurbs on Amazon. They actually came in very good shape and are working well. In addition to the better keyboard and ports, the 2015 MacBook Pro also has a straightforward way to update the storage. I just increased my wife's from 256 GB to 480GB for $160.
- alwaysanon 8y ago
  I felt the same way and ended up with a Surface Laptop 2. I am soo happy the overall feel especially the nice 3:2 screen and keyboard. The only thing I'd have changed was to also add a USBC port (it has a USB-A, MiniDP, headphone that works with Apple mics/headsets and a magnetic charging/dock connector). I never thought I'd go back to Windows but the new Macbooks drove me to try it and now Windows 10, especially with the WSL Ubuntu layer, sucks much less. They even put OpenSSH into windows proper now so no more putty even outside of the Linux layer.
- b3b0p 8y ago
  I can't stand the keyboard, but do like the Touch Bar. Out of FUD, I have keyboard cover on my 2017 MacBook Pro. Similarly thinking, I have been trolling the Thinkpad Subreddit and constantly check the Lenovo Corporate Perks prices with a fully loaded P52 sitting in my cart. Can't pull the trigger. I'm too entrenched and spoiled by the Apple conveniences and ecosystem.
  - anonfunction 8y ago
    I’m curious as to what you mean by trolling the thinkpad subreddit. Trolling usually means causing grief, perhaps you meant lurking or browsing?
    - aljp 8y ago
      To troll originally meant to "carefully and systematically search an area for something." Perhaps a bit of an archaic definition nowadays, but older or more literary people would probably understand it's intent in this context.
      - codepopacy 8y ago
        The word you are thinking of is trawl. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trawl https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trawl And the “search thoroughly” meaning for that is current, not archaic.
        aljp 8y ago
        I wasn't thinking of trawl, in my mind trawling is a method of fishing, such as "Trawling for shrimp". Interestingly, the second definition on that page references "Troll". Following that link, it says down the page "SEARCH, LOOK; trolling for sponsors" and "to search in or at; trolls flea markets for bargains". Perhaps both would work in the above context, however I would prefer trolling over trawling.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
perplex 8y ago
This is cool (and I don't even use mechanical keyboards). It reminds me of the movie "The Dilemma" where the characters were making an audio system to emit fake "muscle car" engine sounds for electric vehicles. Not a great quality clip, but here is the scene: https://youtu.be/Etu44hXY3zg?t=55 https://youtu.be/Etu44hXY3zg?t=55
- snowwrestler 8y ago
  Some luxury cars play engine noise through the speakers: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15117726/faking-it-engine-sound-enhancement-explained-tech-dept/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15117726/faking-it-en...
  - munk-a 8y ago
    Reading through that it looks like sometimes the sound is directed inward at the cabin and other times the speaker is in the engine itself... that latter setup is just so considerate to us pedestrians who love to hear people tear their engines out on short downtown blocks - thanks VW! /s
    - mintone 8y ago
      I worked with a company that conducted some of the research that led to this - a major problem with electric cars at the moment is that pedestrians use the sound of cars to a) register them in the first place and b) judge when the car will arrive (speed). If a conventional vehicle is coming around a corner you can hear it, anticipate its imminent arrival and act accordingly (especially important on country roads without a pedestrian sidewalk) whereas with an electric car the pedestrian receives no such audible warning. So yes, the engine noise is a consideration specifically for pedestrians.
bangonkeyboard 8y ago
There are many complaints about the MBP keyboard. I don't know whether "not noisy enough" is one of them.
- navls 8y ago
  The next version of this app will prevent microscopic dust particles from blocking/repeating keystrokes
dkonofalski 8y ago
I see a lot of complaining about this keyboard online but I have yet to meet someone in person that thought it was as terrible as claimed. I love the new MacBook keyboards and Touch Bar but it's possible that I'm a complete outlier.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  I know people who hate the keyboard on their 2016 or 2017 MacBooks. The 2018 models seem better.
- reaperducer 8y ago
  I'm of mixed opinion on it. It took a while to get used to using it every day. Now I'm OK with it, except for the arrow keys. My biggest problems are that there are no landmarks for your fingers. I swivel between two or three or four computers when I work, and coming back to the MBP, it's hard to re-center my hands without looking. On earlier MacBooks, I think my brain used the inverted T arrows, because my fingers seem to go there first. I like the touch bar, but it needs more support, and more consistent support. Even from Apple, itself. Sometimes I can authenticate with a fingerprint. Sometimes not. Sometimes confirmations are on the touchbar. Sometimes not. It's an inconsistent experience. All of these problems will become moot in a few weeks anyway, since I ordered a proper full-sized Apple Bluetooth keyboard, trackpad, and riser. I miss my F13-F19 keys more than I like the touchbar.
  - blawson 8y ago
    Curious what you mean by no landmarks. I'm typing on a 2017 keyboard and it has the raised marks on the 'F' and 'J' keys to orient for touch typing like every other keyboard I can remember.
- Ralfp 8y ago
  I've got my MBP on November 2016. Keyboard was ok until one day key "R" didn't click on pressing (it still registered). I've tried blowing air from different angles, shaking, fiddling under it with thin piece of paper to no avail. One day I've pressed it, and it did click, and then it popped out. By then Apple had free servicing action in effect, so I've went to local store and they replaced my top body with new one (also replacing battery, touchpad and speakers). Touchbar is completely useless for me. If anything, it freaks me out because there's absolutely zero feedback to finger when I accidentally touch it.
jjcm 8y ago
Tried it out, and while fun, there was just too much latency for me to enjoy the clickiness. It felt like I was mildly drunk while using it.
forgetcolor 8y ago
Trying this out. I like it more than I thought I would. But a couple comments: 1) The sounds appear to all be the same, regardless of key. Seems there should be some subtle variation in the sound, even if it just a very slight modulation in pitch? This would better map with real mechanical keyboards. 2) The sounds appear too far delayed to me. Like it's slightly out of sync w/ my typing. I turned off the keyup sound—which helps—but not enough. It may be this is a limitation you can't overcome. 3) The sound quality seems low. Maybe obtain higher quality samples and/or don't compress it so much?
- lanewinfield 8y ago
  I'm using it right now—it seems like keys towards the right get put more on the right channel of audio and the ones on the left more on the left, which is a nice feature. I think some subtle variation (like, adding an effect randomly or having ~10 recordings) could make this even better.
karmicthreat 8y ago
I solved this by just setting up a magic keyboard/trackpad at work and home. I'm happy with the MBP keyboard but I have issues with debris sticking in keys. This way I can still be a slob, but keep the actual laptop keyboard clean.
nothanksmydude 8y ago
I wish this was actually a fix for how shitty their keyboards are instead of what is essentially a fart app. I've taken my 2017 MBP in for three keyboard repairs at this point. Reluctantly spent $5k upgrading to this after the 2014 i7 air wasn't enough for development. It's easily the worst Macbook I've ever owned. The kicker is that repair is no longer what I would consider "trivial", as to install a new keyboard yourself you have to gut the touchbar out of the old one because there's no way for users to pair a new one. I also recently learned they killed Target Display Mode when they introduced the DCI P3 screens on both iMac and MBP. Perhaps the hardware to do so at that color depth wasn't available then and they couldn't justify doing it themselves, but it certainly is now. I doubt we'll see the feature return. I miss when "Pro" meant actual professional level features Edit: I should add I really don't mind typing on them, and can go just as fast as I can on my custom 60% with clears, the reliabilty is just ass for how much time I spend using it
- kalleboo 8y ago
  > I wish this was actually a fix for how shitty their keyboards are instead of what is essentially a fart app Someone else has actually made a debouncing extension to avoid double-entry of keys with kind-of-sticky-but-not-yet-useless keys https://github.com/aahung/Unshaky https://github.com/aahung/Unshaky
vinceguidry 8y ago
A year ago I excised MacBooks from my main computing life. An old System76 Galago Pro with a stand and a bluetooth keyboard became my couch computer, a Windows 10 with a Ubuntu VM for webdev Lenovo ThinkPad Yoga became my coffee shop / bar computer, and I turned my work MacBook Pro into a glorified desktop by adding an external display, keyboard, and mouse. Eventually I want to replace it with a Mac Mini but can't justify the expenditure this year. There's also an Arch Linux desktop that I'm typing this on now. The only thing I use one for is at home in bed at 3am where f.lux Darkroom Mode on OSX is still unbeatable at what it does, and there's zero chance of liquid spills. Apple's legendary quality just isn't there anymore, and the machines are so fragile to liquid damage and the repair experience went from awesome to utter shit over the last 5 or so years. I just can't justify it anymore. My next phone is a Librem 5, my next laptop a Librem 13. I love the OSX ecosystem but not enough to turn all my machines into hackintoshes. I really didn't think it would only be a few years after Jobs died before Apple started whiffing. Now it's easy to see just how well he was able to keep the jackals away. Now the whole company is solely interested in making stupid amounts of money. Such a shame.
villgax 8y ago
Another better(battery life maybe) one in rust, https://github.com/yingDev/Tickeys https://github.com/yingDev/Tickeys
wodenokoto 8y ago
Last year I drank the cool aid and bought a mechanical keyboard. I don't get it. Compared to butterfly they are pretty bad. Extremely long key travel is supposed to be save me from carpal tunnel. I find it quite exhausting. More worrying is the tactile feedback. When a butterfly (or any other chiclet keyboard) clicks, it registers. Not so much on a mechanical, not even the tactile. It is worst on the linear gaming keyboards, where resting your fingers on the keys can cause them to register. Normal linear keyboards do need to sink deeper before registering, but again, there is absolutely no feedback. The tactile keyboards have a "click" somewhere, but it is not connected to the actual keypress registraion. On top of that they are ridiculously tall. Like most people I prefer thinkpad or old mac keyboards over the butterfly keys, but they are pretty fine, and I would call them very tactile, but I guess that is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way. So maybe I just go with calling them very responsive, with a high correlation between the audible and felt click and key registration.
- exergy 8y ago
  Unfortunately, you fell for the myth. Mechanical keyboards might just be worse for RSI etc, because it's hard to rid yourself of the habit of pounding on the keys to bottom them out, which one has to do on a membrane keyboard. Most mechanical (certainly most Cherry) switches actuate before bottoming out, and through some mindfulness, it is possible to train yourself to type sedately, without bottoming out. But it's hard, and not possible to do all the time. The long keytravel is also a literal pain. The only reason to have a mechanical keyboard is enjoying the key feel, and noise. Typing at the speed of light is way more enjoyable on a keyboard that clacks along happily as you type your tome. If a membrane keyboard does it for you, all the better. Save yourself $$$ on the expensive keyboards and (worse still) expensive keycaps.
- flyingpenguin 8y ago
  Because keyboards are a personal preference thing and the nature of mechanical allows for more implementation styles, there are an insane number of types of mechanical keyboards. Here are the variables: Actuation Point (Where does the press register) Linear vs Tactile vs (Tactile + Clicky) Force (IE how much pressure to push down) total travel distance. (There are also some optical switches with adjustable actuation) >The tactile keyboards have a "click" somewhere, but it is not connected to the actual keypress registraion. MX Blue actuates at 2mm but clicks somewhere around 1.75mm, Razer's tactile switch on the other hand actuates right on the top of its click/bump. You can also find some that actuate before the click. >On top of that they are ridiculously tall. https://kono.store/products/hexgears-x-1-mechanical-keyboard https://kono.store/products/hexgears-x-1-mechanical-keyboard Basically just google low profile mechanical keyboard switches. mechanical keyboard travel distance goes from around 4mm down to 1.5~mm. And there are all kinds of thin ones. >It is worst on the linear gaming keyboards, where resting your fingers on the keys can cause them to register. Cherry MX Red: ~45cN force Cherry MX Black: ~60cN force Cherry MX Grey: ~80cN force There are tons of problems with mechanical keyboards but your problems are not them.
jhanschoo 8y ago
Relevant: https://github.com/rbanffy/selectric-mode https://github.com/rbanffy/selectric-mode

63 points by x0054 8y ago

I've owned MBPs for over ten years. But my mid-2015 15" MBP ("peak MBP") is giving out, and I need a replacement. It won't be another MBP, because of the keyboard regressions -- the butterfly keyboard, and the touchbar. Thinking about a System 76 Galago.

zitterbewegung 8y ago
I wouldn’t recommend system 76 all they are doing is putting Linux on a Clevo. You would be much better off with a dell laptop.
- geophile 8y ago
  What’s wrong with clevo? I’ve heard bad things about dell quality. And wasn’t impressed with the dells I’ve owned, although that was years ago.
  - zitterbewegung 8y ago
    Sorry , should have said you might as well buy direct I bet you can get it cheaper. I dealt with a friends clevo that stopped working after two years .
  - Octoth0rpe 8y ago
    > I’ve heard bad things about dell quality. The thing I'd say about Dell is that they're like Ikea in that they produce a wide variety of products at a wide variety of price points. High end Dells (XPS, Precision) IME have good to excellent quality. Lower end dells (inspiron) have mediocre quality as pretty good prices. If you're paying very little for a dell, don't expect it to last. If you're paying a lot for your Dell, it _will_ last. I'm still using a 10yo precision tower and everything about it is great. 13" dell xps w/ Ubuntu would be on the list of Dells that I would trust to be of high quality.
giancarlostoro 8y ago
I felt the same, but I went with a Surface Book 2 instead, I love this thing. Pretty sweet keyboard and I can get as Unix friendly as I need to with MobaXterm (use it for X forwarding) and WSL. I have an ASUS Laptop with Linux on it for my pure Linux itch and I still got a Macbook Air. I was ticket off that the Macbook came back and the Air looks more like a Macbook than the Macbook, they should swap names (I've said this too many times) between the products. Anyway, I love my SB2, and my only regret is not being able to somehow know they were going to release it in Black a few months later. I await the SB3 and will buy it in Black if they offer it. Another option for you might be Dell. The Dell XPS is a sweet looking laptop, I haven't had the pleasure yet though.
- izacus 8y ago
  I've been looking at one of these and the only thing that worries me is the hinge - it looks like the laptop is "fat" at the hinge part instead of closing together snugly. Is that a problem when carrying it around in comparison to a mac? Is it an annoyance?
  - imandride 8y ago
    I have had the Surface Book 1 since launch and the hinge still work like the day I bought it. Come to think of it I haven't heard any complaints about the hinge at all.
  - apk-d 8y ago
    I've been carrying around my SB2 15" in my backpack's laptop pocket for about half a year. Here's the summary. - Zero problem with the fatness on my end. Looks kinda sexy tbh. - The keyboard is really good about from the fn key which acts as a toggle (if you don't combo it with another key). Can never get quite used to that. - The body paint can get scratched and worn down if you're reckless. - The hinge itself works fine ~~~97% of the time. Occasionally gets stuck (can't detach) for unknown reason requiring a reboot or two, or some dirt gets in the way of the connectors and it thinks it got detached when you move it around. - Battery life feels somewhat disappointing, but I haven't done rigorous tests. If you're planning to use the gpu, you better bring that charger. - The gpu gets thermally throttled pretty easily. - Performance at the 4k-ish resolution can be disappointing depending on the app (even the browser). This gets worse if you add an external monitor or if you don't run it above the "recommended" performance level. Unfortunately most devs (including MS) seem to optimize for 1920x1080. - My SB seems to have problems with WMR even with the official adapter (display goes black occasionally). - There's a driver (?) bug with the screen brightness sometimes being too low. I've filed a report on the feedback thing, but I'm not seeing or expecting any response. Love the screen (and the width\height ratio) otherwise. Overall, it's a decent and interesting machine, but the edges can be rough.
deleted 8y ago
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ordinaryradical 8y ago
I'm in the same boat and will need to switch once my 2015 dies, but I really don't want to have to switch from MacOS. 90% of my work depends on the keyboard and I can't stand the response of the butterfly switches, it's like typing on a piece of glass. Do I have to hackintosh may way back in?
- bavariancake 8y ago
  Yes. Join us on the dark side. https://github.com/bavariancake/XPS9570-macOS https://github.com/bavariancake/XPS9570-macOS I still have my 2012 MBPr, but I’m really liking the keyboard on the XPS 15.
  - ordinaryradical 8y ago
    Is it futz intensive? How far away from "it just works" are you?
    - bavariancake 8y ago
      Initially there was a lot of futzing, because the hardware just came out (UHD 630 Intel graphics). Some things like Nvidia graphics and SD card reader won’t work because of missing drivers, and are unlikely to work in the future. That said, I use this setup every day and mostly forget it’s not a Mac. I was quite frustrated by the new Touch Bar Macs issued by my work (unpleasant keyboard, no real F keys, USB C only, flimsy back case that has dents in it from regular commuting use somehow), so I didn’t see that as a viable upgrade path for me since I like to keep my computers for 5+ years. That’s probably not very convincing, but for me it was the right choice. For what’s its worth, I intend to support the XPS 9570 as a Hackintosh platform until at least 2023.
shimms 8y ago
> It won't be another MBP, because of the keyboard regressions Have you tried the third generation butterfly on the 2018 MBP and MBA? I hate with a passion the first two attempts at the butterfly keyboard, but the third gen I actually enjoy using.
- woolvalley 8y ago
  Although it is nicer, even the 3rd gen keyboards have reports of keys sticking and breaking. I've never had to worry about my laptop keyboard breaking before I got a butterfly keyboard macbook from work.
  - shimms 8y ago
    That’s true - my first gen MacBook a couple of years ago was replaced three times. My MBA is only a few weeks old, and I’ve noticed the space bar feels different already on the right hand side. Not sure if it’s real or imagined yet, but based on past experience, I’m concerned it may very well be dodgy. I really do want to think they’ve ironed these issues out, but I admit I wouldn’t be surprised to find myself at the Genius Bar a few times with this new one getting it replaced as well.
- rconti 8y ago
  I had my first MBP butterfly keyboard failing with a spec of dust or something. At my new job, new MBP, no such problem -- but I'm mixed on replacing my (personal) 2011 MBA with a 2018 MBA because of the keyboard and USB port and SD card reader regression. Tried a 2018 MBA at the apple store -- I didn't realized they changed the keyboard, but it's definitely better. I don't hate the keyboard on my 2018 MBP but its.. not great. I just rarely use it; I typically have my computer plugged into external keyboard/monitor.
- bluedino 8y ago
  I have had each model year revision since 2015 Retina Macbook, and it's not so much the keys themselves but the fact that the keys are basically flush with the case which bothers me the most.
pbrb 8y ago
I went with an x1 carbon. Dual boot linux (ubuntu with plasma desktop) and couldn't be happier.
dkhenry 8y ago
I was in the exact same situation late last year, and I went with a X1 Carbon 6th Generation. It has been fantastic. Everything just works, and it has probably the best keyboard I have ever used on a laptop
- TomVDB 8y ago
  Just 2 days ago, I spent 2 hours researching alternatives for my mid-2012 MBPr 15 and had settled on an X1 Carbon as well. How's the trackpad? How's sleep mode if you use it with Linux? I'm still on the fence, but I ordered an iFixit battery replacement kit for the MBP. After almost 7 years (!), it still has everything I need except for the fact that it randomly shuts down when the battery is at 60%...
  - dkhenry 8y ago
    My trackpad works well, as does the trackpad of everyone else at my company that I have ordered them for, however I have been told they had different suppliers for some of the X1's and a few people have complained that the trackpad and nubbin won't work at the same time. Sleep mode works great, there is a bios setting for Linux which by default is set to Windows 10, once you set it to linux deep sleep works just by closing the lid, and it resumes as expected. I do use it with Linux, I have Ubuntu 18.04 running on it and it works great. usb-c charging it amazing, and it works great with my usb-c monitor ( lets me have a single cable to connect everything to the laptop and to charge the laptop ) Battery life is fantastic, the only thing I have to get used to is the CPU in it can burn a lot of battery if you are running it at full load for an extended period of time. When I am running lots of containers on kubernetes it can burn down the battery in a few hours.
  - rdoherty 8y ago
    I've had an X1 Carbon for a few months, coming from a 2015 MBP. Track pad is pretty bad compared to a MacBook. Everything else is very good. I got the high res screen too and it is comparable to a retina display IMHO. I've installed Ubuntu 18 with 0 problems. Sleep works fine, haven't had any issues with wake up. You do need to install some custom software and change a BIOS setting for it to use 'Linux' sleep mode (or something like that). Battery life is 'pretty good', not exceptional like MBPs, but definitely in the 6hr range. Overall I'd recommend a X1 Carbon, especially since you will spend nearly $1k less on the comparable specs.
sorahn 8y ago
I was just looking at some of the 2015 refurbs on amazon. Not bad. I have a 2018 at work, and I hate the keyboard. I'm either gonna grab the highest spec 2015 when mine dies, or just use my work laptop until the next generation. I'm not interested in shelling out for a new personal laptop with these keyboards. :(
- nickm12 8y ago
  I just bought two 2015 refurbs on Amazon. They actually came in very good shape and are working well. In addition to the better keyboard and ports, the 2015 MacBook Pro also has a straightforward way to update the storage. I just increased my wife's from 256 GB to 480GB for $160.
alwaysanon 8y ago
I felt the same way and ended up with a Surface Laptop 2. I am soo happy the overall feel especially the nice 3:2 screen and keyboard. The only thing I'd have changed was to also add a USBC port (it has a USB-A, MiniDP, headphone that works with Apple mics/headsets and a magnetic charging/dock connector). I never thought I'd go back to Windows but the new Macbooks drove me to try it and now Windows 10, especially with the WSL Ubuntu layer, sucks much less. They even put OpenSSH into windows proper now so no more putty even outside of the Linux layer.
b3b0p 8y ago
I can't stand the keyboard, but do like the Touch Bar. Out of FUD, I have keyboard cover on my 2017 MacBook Pro. Similarly thinking, I have been trolling the Thinkpad Subreddit and constantly check the Lenovo Corporate Perks prices with a fully loaded P52 sitting in my cart. Can't pull the trigger. I'm too entrenched and spoiled by the Apple conveniences and ecosystem.
- anonfunction 8y ago
  I’m curious as to what you mean by trolling the thinkpad subreddit. Trolling usually means causing grief, perhaps you meant lurking or browsing?
  - aljp 8y ago
    To troll originally meant to "carefully and systematically search an area for something." Perhaps a bit of an archaic definition nowadays, but older or more literary people would probably understand it's intent in this context.
    - codepopacy 8y ago
      The word you are thinking of is trawl. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trawl https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/trawl And the “search thoroughly” meaning for that is current, not archaic.
      - aljp 8y ago
        I wasn't thinking of trawl, in my mind trawling is a method of fishing, such as "Trawling for shrimp". Interestingly, the second definition on that page references "Troll". Following that link, it says down the page "SEARCH, LOOK; trolling for sponsors" and "to search in or at; trolls flea markets for bargains". Perhaps both would work in the above context, however I would prefer trolling over trawling.
  - deleted 8y ago
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perplex 8y ago

This is cool (and I don't even use mechanical keyboards). It reminds me of the movie "The Dilemma" where the characters were making an audio system to emit fake "muscle car" engine sounds for electric vehicles. Not a great quality clip, but here is the scene: https://youtu.be/Etu44hXY3zg?t=55 https://youtu.be/Etu44hXY3zg?t=55

snowwrestler 8y ago
Some luxury cars play engine noise through the speakers: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15117726/faking-it-engine-sound-enhancement-explained-tech-dept/ https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a15117726/faking-it-en...
- munk-a 8y ago
  Reading through that it looks like sometimes the sound is directed inward at the cabin and other times the speaker is in the engine itself... that latter setup is just so considerate to us pedestrians who love to hear people tear their engines out on short downtown blocks - thanks VW! /s
  - mintone 8y ago
    I worked with a company that conducted some of the research that led to this - a major problem with electric cars at the moment is that pedestrians use the sound of cars to a) register them in the first place and b) judge when the car will arrive (speed). If a conventional vehicle is coming around a corner you can hear it, anticipate its imminent arrival and act accordingly (especially important on country roads without a pedestrian sidewalk) whereas with an electric car the pedestrian receives no such audible warning. So yes, the engine noise is a consideration specifically for pedestrians.

bangonkeyboard 8y ago

There are many complaints about the MBP keyboard. I don't know whether "not noisy enough" is one of them.

navls 8y ago
The next version of this app will prevent microscopic dust particles from blocking/repeating keystrokes

dkonofalski 8y ago

I see a lot of complaining about this keyboard online but I have yet to meet someone in person that thought it was as terrible as claimed. I love the new MacBook keyboards and Touch Bar but it's possible that I'm a complete outlier.

maxxxxx 8y ago
I know people who hate the keyboard on their 2016 or 2017 MacBooks. The 2018 models seem better.
reaperducer 8y ago
I'm of mixed opinion on it. It took a while to get used to using it every day. Now I'm OK with it, except for the arrow keys. My biggest problems are that there are no landmarks for your fingers. I swivel between two or three or four computers when I work, and coming back to the MBP, it's hard to re-center my hands without looking. On earlier MacBooks, I think my brain used the inverted T arrows, because my fingers seem to go there first. I like the touch bar, but it needs more support, and more consistent support. Even from Apple, itself. Sometimes I can authenticate with a fingerprint. Sometimes not. Sometimes confirmations are on the touchbar. Sometimes not. It's an inconsistent experience. All of these problems will become moot in a few weeks anyway, since I ordered a proper full-sized Apple Bluetooth keyboard, trackpad, and riser. I miss my F13-F19 keys more than I like the touchbar.
- blawson 8y ago
  Curious what you mean by no landmarks. I'm typing on a 2017 keyboard and it has the raised marks on the 'F' and 'J' keys to orient for touch typing like every other keyboard I can remember.
Ralfp 8y ago
I've got my MBP on November 2016. Keyboard was ok until one day key "R" didn't click on pressing (it still registered). I've tried blowing air from different angles, shaking, fiddling under it with thin piece of paper to no avail. One day I've pressed it, and it did click, and then it popped out. By then Apple had free servicing action in effect, so I've went to local store and they replaced my top body with new one (also replacing battery, touchpad and speakers). Touchbar is completely useless for me. If anything, it freaks me out because there's absolutely zero feedback to finger when I accidentally touch it.

jjcm 8y ago

Tried it out, and while fun, there was just too much latency for me to enjoy the clickiness. It felt like I was mildly drunk while using it.

forgetcolor 8y ago

Trying this out. I like it more than I thought I would. But a couple comments: 1) The sounds appear to all be the same, regardless of key. Seems there should be some subtle variation in the sound, even if it just a very slight modulation in pitch? This would better map with real mechanical keyboards. 2) The sounds appear too far delayed to me. Like it's slightly out of sync w/ my typing. I turned off the keyup sound—which helps—but not enough. It may be this is a limitation you can't overcome. 3) The sound quality seems low. Maybe obtain higher quality samples and/or don't compress it so much?

lanewinfield 8y ago
I'm using it right now—it seems like keys towards the right get put more on the right channel of audio and the ones on the left more on the left, which is a nice feature. I think some subtle variation (like, adding an effect randomly or having ~10 recordings) could make this even better.

karmicthreat 8y ago

I solved this by just setting up a magic keyboard/trackpad at work and home. I'm happy with the MBP keyboard but I have issues with debris sticking in keys. This way I can still be a slob, but keep the actual laptop keyboard clean.

nothanksmydude 8y ago

I wish this was actually a fix for how shitty their keyboards are instead of what is essentially a fart app. I've taken my 2017 MBP in for three keyboard repairs at this point. Reluctantly spent $5k upgrading to this after the 2014 i7 air wasn't enough for development. It's easily the worst Macbook I've ever owned. The kicker is that repair is no longer what I would consider "trivial", as to install a new keyboard yourself you have to gut the touchbar out of the old one because there's no way for users to pair a new one. I also recently learned they killed Target Display Mode when they introduced the DCI P3 screens on both iMac and MBP. Perhaps the hardware to do so at that color depth wasn't available then and they couldn't justify doing it themselves, but it certainly is now. I doubt we'll see the feature return. I miss when "Pro" meant actual professional level features Edit: I should add I really don't mind typing on them, and can go just as fast as I can on my custom 60% with clears, the reliabilty is just ass for how much time I spend using it

kalleboo 8y ago
> I wish this was actually a fix for how shitty their keyboards are instead of what is essentially a fart app Someone else has actually made a debouncing extension to avoid double-entry of keys with kind-of-sticky-but-not-yet-useless keys https://github.com/aahung/Unshaky https://github.com/aahung/Unshaky

vinceguidry 8y ago

A year ago I excised MacBooks from my main computing life. An old System76 Galago Pro with a stand and a bluetooth keyboard became my couch computer, a Windows 10 with a Ubuntu VM for webdev Lenovo ThinkPad Yoga became my coffee shop / bar computer, and I turned my work MacBook Pro into a glorified desktop by adding an external display, keyboard, and mouse. Eventually I want to replace it with a Mac Mini but can't justify the expenditure this year. There's also an Arch Linux desktop that I'm typing this on now. The only thing I use one for is at home in bed at 3am where f.lux Darkroom Mode on OSX is still unbeatable at what it does, and there's zero chance of liquid spills. Apple's legendary quality just isn't there anymore, and the machines are so fragile to liquid damage and the repair experience went from awesome to utter shit over the last 5 or so years. I just can't justify it anymore. My next phone is a Librem 5, my next laptop a Librem 13. I love the OSX ecosystem but not enough to turn all my machines into hackintoshes. I really didn't think it would only be a few years after Jobs died before Apple started whiffing. Now it's easy to see just how well he was able to keep the jackals away. Now the whole company is solely interested in making stupid amounts of money. Such a shame.

villgax 8y ago

Another better(battery life maybe) one in rust, https://github.com/yingDev/Tickeys https://github.com/yingDev/Tickeys

wodenokoto 8y ago

Last year I drank the cool aid and bought a mechanical keyboard. I don't get it. Compared to butterfly they are pretty bad. Extremely long key travel is supposed to be save me from carpal tunnel. I find it quite exhausting. More worrying is the tactile feedback. When a butterfly (or any other chiclet keyboard) clicks, it registers. Not so much on a mechanical, not even the tactile. It is worst on the linear gaming keyboards, where resting your fingers on the keys can cause them to register. Normal linear keyboards do need to sink deeper before registering, but again, there is absolutely no feedback. The tactile keyboards have a "click" somewhere, but it is not connected to the actual keypress registraion. On top of that they are ridiculously tall. Like most people I prefer thinkpad or old mac keyboards over the butterfly keys, but they are pretty fine, and I would call them very tactile, but I guess that is going to rub a lot of people the wrong way. So maybe I just go with calling them very responsive, with a high correlation between the audible and felt click and key registration.

exergy 8y ago
Unfortunately, you fell for the myth. Mechanical keyboards might just be worse for RSI etc, because it's hard to rid yourself of the habit of pounding on the keys to bottom them out, which one has to do on a membrane keyboard. Most mechanical (certainly most Cherry) switches actuate before bottoming out, and through some mindfulness, it is possible to train yourself to type sedately, without bottoming out. But it's hard, and not possible to do all the time. The long keytravel is also a literal pain. The only reason to have a mechanical keyboard is enjoying the key feel, and noise. Typing at the speed of light is way more enjoyable on a keyboard that clacks along happily as you type your tome. If a membrane keyboard does it for you, all the better. Save yourself $$$ on the expensive keyboards and (worse still) expensive keycaps.
flyingpenguin 8y ago
Because keyboards are a personal preference thing and the nature of mechanical allows for more implementation styles, there are an insane number of types of mechanical keyboards. Here are the variables: Actuation Point (Where does the press register) Linear vs Tactile vs (Tactile + Clicky) Force (IE how much pressure to push down) total travel distance. (There are also some optical switches with adjustable actuation) >The tactile keyboards have a "click" somewhere, but it is not connected to the actual keypress registraion. MX Blue actuates at 2mm but clicks somewhere around 1.75mm, Razer's tactile switch on the other hand actuates right on the top of its click/bump. You can also find some that actuate before the click. >On top of that they are ridiculously tall. https://kono.store/products/hexgears-x-1-mechanical-keyboard https://kono.store/products/hexgears-x-1-mechanical-keyboard Basically just google low profile mechanical keyboard switches. mechanical keyboard travel distance goes from around 4mm down to 1.5~mm. And there are all kinds of thin ones. >It is worst on the linear gaming keyboards, where resting your fingers on the keys can cause them to register. Cherry MX Red: ~45cN force Cherry MX Black: ~60cN force Cherry MX Grey: ~80cN force There are tons of problems with mechanical keyboards but your problems are not them.

jhanschoo 8y ago

Relevant: https://github.com/rbanffy/selectric-mode https://github.com/rbanffy/selectric-mode