26 ms·
Project Alias hacks Amazon Echo and Google Home to protect privacy
- whalesalad 8y agoEverything about this is radical aside from the way they made it resemble an actual fungus growing on a device. This is the most extreme skeuomorphism I’ve ever seen.
- mnsc 8y agoAnd I love it!
- iratewizard 8y agoThis is a brilliant idea. I'm curious about a lot of the implementation specifics like how audible the white noise is in a silent room and what kind of UX trade offs it brings.
- Spellchamp 8y agoYeah, I'm wondering how it should work when you say the wake word too. Like if I say "Sister Assumpta, what's the weather like?" is it just going to repeat the same command but replace "Sister Assumpta" with "Hey Google?" Thus slowing the whole thing down?
- entropicdrifter 8y agoSeems to me based on the description that it only says "Hey Google" to the device and then lets your voice through by cutting off the white noise. That would mean the only delay would be between when you say the wake word and when Google starts listening.
- harperlee 8y agoThe article says that after your keyword it deactivates the white noise wall for a while, and whispers the original keyword. So alexa / google / siri will hear you directly.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- lazyjones 8y agoPerhaps someone will build a little robot that listens like this Alias, then takes the Alexa/Home out of a soundproof box (or just opens the box) and passes on the commands, then closes the box again. That'd get rid of the static...
- hcurtiss 8y agoI'm curious whether it will handle the audio trigger as well as Google/Amazon/Apple. It takes some pretty advanced audio algorithms to catch "hey Google" in a busy kitchen. It would be pretty frustrating if this device caused these devices to trigger even more inconsistently.
- kuhhk 8y agoYa, my echo devices can hear me across the kitchen, with people talking near it, while the water is running, and the TV is on (in the distance). That's a core feature for me. If this device dropped that capability, I'd rip it off in a day.
- jdietrich 8y agoNope. The Amazon Echo uses an array of seven microphones to isolate speech from background noise. There's no way that this device can pass through accurate spatial information, which will inevitably degrade speech and wake word recognition in noisy or reverberant environments.
- lftl 8y agoI love this idea. I've wanted to do something similar for a long time, but I was thinking about building a home assistant where the always-on mic was a complete separate board that only listened for wake words and had no internet access. The main mic would only be powered on when the smaller board woke it up. Alias achieves the same thing in a much simpler way to where I might actually consider buying a home assistant now.
- tantalor 8y agoExplain how this is an improvement?
- hnnh44 8y agoI'm wondering this too. Like hey, let's install some under developed AI from some unknown company with unknown security policies on top of a device with access to hordes of personal data and the ability to make transactions online. No hacker will EVER think to use it as an attack vector /s
- mental1896 8y agoIt's open source: https://github.com/bjoernkarmann/project_alias https://github.com/bjoernkarmann/project_alias
- lftl 8y agoI didn't look into Alias deeply, but does it even have network access at all? I don't see a reason it would have to.
- kelnos 8y agoIt needs it for setup (so you can set up the wake word using your phone), but then after that it can be disconnected.
- supermatt 8y agoyou just put it on top of your device, instead of needing to modify the electronics of your potentially expensive and complicated home assistant?
- bhhaskin 8y agoThis is a fantastic idea! Although it is pretty sad that it is needed in the first place.
- sidibe 8y agoIt's not needed
- lqet 8y agoHm, I don't quite understand how this works. So, if you say "Alias", then Alias has a built-in speaker that whispers "Hey Google" (or the equivalent) into the microphone. What if I start the question before Alias has finished analyzing my speech and playing the "Hey Google"?
- vthallam 8y agoFor a pre-defined wake word, it should be pretty fast. It could also cache your query if it is still waiting for google home's response.
- justtopost 8y agoI still think voting with your wallet and not buying the devices is the better tack. This just normalizes the notion that they are always listening, qnd the best we can do is pay for the hardware and then hack around it? Bollocks.
- goda90 8y agoSo doesn't Alexa already not record until you say the trigger word? If we don't trust that that is the case, then sure this device covers that, but it doesn't change the fact that they are still collecting data on every command you issue to the device.
- Cthulhu_ 8y agoTrue, but hopefully that's banal things like "play Despacito" or "What's 2 + 2", not "Please add 'rending me in the gobberwarts with a blurglecruncheon' to my depraved kinks list" or "Set my root password to 'secret123'" or "How do I build a nuke in my basement off of stuff I can order from Amazon".
- komali2 8y agoWhenever I find a stray Alexa or Google home at a friend's place I ask it how to import cocaine or where I can buy uranium. So far nothing's happened...
- creeble 8y agoNice friend! Do you search porn on their 'stray' computer while you're at it?
- komali2 8y agoWe do indeed throw horse porn into eachothers' search history. I sense your sarcasm - perhaps my friends and I have a different group culture than yours do?
- tzs 8y agoYou can by uranium from Amazon [1]. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Images-SI-Uranium-Ore/dp/B000796XXM https://www.amazon.com/Images-SI-Uranium-Ore/dp/B000796XXM
- ninju 8y agoThe microphone on the Alexa needs to be constantly active so that it can hear its name (the trigger name). The point of this device is to defeat the microphone, by playing white noise. But yes this device does not address what data is captured after you have engaged your smart assistant (nor is trying to address that issue)
- WAthrowaway 8y agoYou could also just not buy one of those awful things. I have never seen a legitimate use for it that wasn't misplaced adolescent tech fantasies (omg I can tell big brother to make coffee and my keurig starts up!). But maybe my line of business has made me excessively paranoid / niche I would like to make an edit: functionality for those with disabilities is a huge use-case I did not consider. Thank you for your insightful comments
- michaelmior 8y agoI like to be able to play music, ask simple questions, etc. without pulling out my phone. I don't understand why those aren't "legitimate" use cases. Maybe you don't like the tradeoff you're making in using such a device, but if I'm fine with it, how are my uses cases not legitimate?
- weberc2 8y agoYeah, I got one for Christmas a couple of years ago; thought it would be really gimmicky, but I find it's actually quite a lot nicer to use than my phone or other devices for the following: * Turning on/off lights * Changing the thermostat set temp * Asking about the weather forecast * Add items to a shopping list * Playing music If you can't imagine a voice interface being appreciably better than a phone interface for these things, I recommend withholding judgment until you've tried it. Also, to be very clear (since some people have a knack for arguing points I never made), I'm explicitly not saying that the current hot-mic implementation is technically necessary or ideal, nor that these conveniences justify the privacy tradeoff.
- ehsankia 8y agoIt's also worth noting that you don't always have to do it with voice either. If I'm on the couch with my phone, I might use it to update my shopping list, whereas if I'm in the kitchen cooking, I'll use voice. Similarly, if I just want random music, I will say "play music", but if I want a specific album, I might use my phone, especially if it has a complicated name that I don't remember. Obviously not every action is easier or more optimal by voice, but having the option is great.
- michaelmior 8y agoOf course now I need to trust the Alias device. That might very well be a good tradeoff, but there's still something always listening.
- StavrosK 8y agoExcept now you can audit the software and not connect it to the network at all.
- michaelmior 8y agoGood point if I set up the Pi myself, but it's unclear if this will apply to the device if it gets produced commercially.
- StavrosK 8y agoEven if it gets produced commercially, no network access means no problem.
- shagie 8y agoIn the “let’s go down the what could be done” path... No network accesss doesn’t mean no access to the outside world. “Alexa, tell some tracker that ...” when you are asleep. And how many people audit their past activations on the Alexa app? No, I don’t believe this would be the case... I have half a dozen Alexa devices of various builds, a google home (that is currently powered off) and some iDevices plugged in for hey Siri in different rooms. The thing I was trying to point out though is that no network access is not no outside world access for this device. And if one is paranoid enough to desire this device, then the device itself should be worried about. And yes, with the right software, it could be reprogrammed via voice too. “Alexa, read some reprogramming site”. The only acceptable solution is to make it yourself and audit the code yourself if you are concerned enough to desire it in the first place.
- throw7 8y agoWell, props for trying to fix these assistants, but i'm not gonna pay more for what should be already. And, yes, I won't buy those things if I can't change the "name". It's like the first thing I want to do. (full disclosure: i do have a google mini that came as a promotional free gift)
- ape4 8y agoDo Alex and Google have software APIs? Can you make a hardware device (eg Raspberry Pi) that listens for a wake up then sends to the API? Seems more elegant. As a bonus, maybe your device could understand "Alexa..." and "OK Google..." and send to the relevant API. Use Alexa for shopping and Google for searches?
- mLuby 8y agoInvolves more trust. This has the elegance of not needing to trust the megacorps any more than you care to.
- amdavidson 8y agoHow does this involve more trust? With either Alias, or an homebrew solution you're sending the query portion ("How many teaspoons are in a tablespoon?") to the megacorp?
- mLuby 8y agoWhoops didn't see this part, yeah you're right! >hardware device (eg Raspberry Pi) that listens for a wake up then sends to the API?
- maccard 8y agoGoogle assistant has an API here [0], and Alexa has a fairly large amount of documentation here [1]. In theory, the devices already claim to do this. If you don't trust that they do, you probably shouldn't have one full stop. [0] https://developers.google.com/assistant/sdk/overview https://developers.google.com/assistant/sdk/overview [1] https://developer.amazon.com/alexa https://developer.amazon.com/alexa
- arnarbi 8y agoThere's this: https://developers.google.com/assistant/sdk/ https://developers.google.com/assistant/sdk/
- ars 8y agoThis is going to mess up the voice detection. It's keyed off of the original trigger word and knows who is talking to it so you get reminders and other items specific to that person.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- ElijahLynn 8y agoThat was my first thought too, you would have to train the device to use your voice sample for the whisper of "hey google", which is totally doable. My main concern is speed.
- tylerhou 8y agoWhat’s to stop you from configuring it so it says “Hey Google” differently based on the person talking?
- thefreeman 8y agoWell for one you would need to build user identification into the speech recognition on Alias which is likely a lot harder then just recognizing one trained trigger word. Could be a feature down the line though.
- dinujohnk 8y agoThis can be seen as a step towards privacy hardware. Maybe a special hardware to protect the privacy of people who uses this kinda of gadgets
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y agoI get that this is an art project, but I think it would be more effective as a privacy device if it inserted a switch inline with the microphone, doing away with the "white noise" entirely. :)
- Lizzo 8y agoAre you implying that turning off the mic stops it from listening? If they're gonna steal your data they're gonna do it properly
- vectorEQ 8y ago"Project Alias offers an independent layer of protection to any privacy-minded person" how>? that makes no sense. only because it wakes it for you? i think its good that you need to talk to google or some company, at least then you have an honest picture where your data goes :D. most useless machine in the world, apart from the damn home-AI nonsense itself :D
- sabujp 8y agotldr; uses raspberry pi to continuously feed the smart speaker white noise until it receives your new keyword, "ok alias" or "ok computer" or whatever. I think it's cool, there have been countless times when I didn't even say "ok google" and it has randomly woken up
- wrs 8y agoWhile I appreciate the sentiment...unless you actually think Google and Amazon devices are recording irrelevant ambient sound deliberately (they aren’t), this doesn’t help anything. Unless the software here is better than theirs at recognizing the trigger word (very unlikely), there will be even more false positive activations on this device than there are on the originals. Edit: It’s very unlikely because Amazon and Google pay for false positives, so they have a strong incentive to develop really good trigger word detection.
- heinrichhartman 8y ago> (they aren’t) How do you know? And, how do you know they will not do this silently in the future? Also worse detection does not mean more false positives. Usually, you can get the false positive rate very low by allowing more false negatives. In this way you have a choice, how you want to trade-off. Without this device, you are stuck with the choice that Amazon/Google make for you.
- bussierem 8y ago> How do you know? And, how do you know they will not do this silently in the future? Because it's a literal hardware limitation. The device is built in a way that requires a wake word before any recording can possibly happen, thanks to it being built with 2 separate control boards. If they ended up maybe changing the wakeword to "the", then maybe they could "silently" listen to everything, but that would be caught pretty quick because the device would be "lit up" constantly (another _hardware_ thing), or someone would notice that it no longer responds to "Alexa" or "Google". Seriously, a lot of people on HN need to do their damn homework about these devices before declaring them to be something they have been proven not to be. Packet sniffing and hardware inspection both instantly disprove all these conspiracy-theory nonsense claims that these devices are recording your every word.
- zdkl 8y agoThere's a widespread sentiment that current evidence of compliance to "doing right by users" should be viewed with circumspection. And it's fair to say Google's past behaviour raises doubts about the level of trust users should extend them. What is a conspiracy theory about today's hardware, I have no trouble imagining is a planned or at least considered future iteration of their "service".
- cheriot 8y agoI'm more excited at the prospect of choosing my own wake word than the privacy. Ok, Google is weirdly cumbersome
- LawnboyMax 8y agoThis may be an interesting addition to some home assistant developed using https://www.home-assistant.io/ https://www.home-assistant.io/ That is, use Google Home/Alexa/Apple Home for their speech recognition abilities while ensuring it doesn't eavesdrop and works with any other smart device that you have (e.g. there is no way to directly control Nest using Apple Home).
- kelnos 8y agoThere's really no need for that. Google at least has a speech recognition API that you could send audio to directly; no need to use a Google Home as a middleman if that's all you want.
- mikeyg 8y agoOne thing that'd make this better is if it spammed garbage to poison their data sets when not in use.
- crankylinuxuser 8y agoThe project seems really cool, but... This is like putting gold leaf on a turd. The companies in question treat users like datamines to be stripmined and left. These are listening posts that books like 1984 talked about. Yet unlike the stories of them being "placed", they're being sold to the gullible public who clamor to get the next version. Echo&GHome < Project Alias < Not buying one at all
- creeble 8y agoI call it Misplaced Distrust. Every cellphone in the world has a microphone that could be listening all the time and sending data anywhere. So does most every computer. It's a better threat vector by 1000x, more stealthy, easier to conceal traffic. But all anyone ever talks about is a device designed to listen to you talk because hey, so obvious, big brother MUST be listening in there!
- philsnow 8y agoCell phones have batteries, so it would be even less practical for phones to be "phoning home" a stream of what's going on around it at all times than a "smart speaker".
- ProfessorLayton 8y agoAnd metered data. I would be very aware if my phone was eating my data plan via constantly recording audio. Even a measly 12kbps audio stream adds up to nearly 4GB/mo if recording 24hrs/day. Non-techie users would absolutely notice that their data and battery is being used up in the background pretty quickly. Further, the cell networks simply could not support that kind of usage from every single subscriber at the same time.
- dmix 8y agoYour phone could easily wait until it's on wifi to upload 24hrs worthy of ambient voice data (which is only trigged by voice activation, so not a full 24hrs)... The feds have been using cellphones as full-bore wiretaps since the early 2000s when they used it on mobster's "dumbphones". I'm sure they've figured out clever exfiltration techniques on smartphones by now. Especially considering how willing the ISPs/telecom companies are to bend over backwards to hide surveillance. Even 3g/4g wiretapping is probably feasible.
- creeble 8y agoHow about your computer? Here’s a parallel construct: It would be trivial for Microsoft to have a key logger in Windows that sent every keystroke to Redmond. Why does anyone trust that they are not doing it? Indeed, they could scan your computer for whatever data they like and send it to Redmond. But no one even suspects it, or at least at nowhere near the level people seem to distrust Amazon and Google over sending your voice to them full-time. This is what I mean by Misplaced Distrust. We already trust Google and Amazon with far more of our personal data without a thought. But a microphone? Ooh, scary!
- cordonbleu 8y agothis is the source[s] released by amazon. no warantee from me , these are suppossed to be every version of all alexa interface devices source so far. https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201626480 https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...
- JoshTriplett 8y agoI'm much less interested in gating audio recording (which I have reasonable confidence in the device itself doing) and much more interested in being able to use a device like this without turning on all of the various histories. Google Assistant refuses to do most of its interesting functions (other than trivial things like setting an alarm) without turning on search history, location history, voice history, and various device information. There's no good reason for it to require that information for a request like like "play XYZ on YouTube".
- ddtaylor 8y ago> which I have reasonable confidence in the device itself doing A few horror stories related to Alex hint that it might not be doing a very good job. The grammar/syntax it uses to wake is much more complex than what Alias is proposing as a safe alternative. The most blatant example would be the Portland, OR couple that found the Alexa device making phone calls to people as they had a discussion near it.
- bagacrap 8y agoI don't know about Alexa but Google Home always repeats back to me in a loud and clear (and slow :( ) voice what it's about to do when I issue a command. I have a hard time believing you wouldn't notice the device making a call. Even if you failed to notice what the device was doing, the likelihood of this type of mistake vs. the likelihood of a pocket dial seems relatively slim.
- clebio 8y agoOr just don't buy one in order to hack it and instead start with a project that supports these goals at its core. https://mycroft.ai/ https://mycroft.ai/
- Krasnol 8y agoDoes it allow you to change the name you call it now? Last time I looked at it, the dev wanted to know how much I was ready to pay for the feature...
- bArray 8y agoIn the article, `raspberry pie` -> `Raspberry Pi`
- fixermark 8y agoThis is an extremely clever solution to the trust question for people that trust the company with their query data but not with every snippet of raw audio that could float through their room.
- usefulcat 8y agoSo the market for this device is.. people who care enough about privacy to buy this device, but not enough to forgo using an Echo or Google Home in the first place?
- seheaven 8y agoAccess to privacy equals business today. Therefore turning this "promise of privacy" project over to the business sector would be a contradiction in terms. Most of the world does not care that companies/governments have access to their privacy. Snowden is a good example of this principle. The few that do care would not be enough to sustain this "promise of privacy" business model. Therefore the responsibility is upon each individual to make their own Alias in order to protect their own privacy using this open source maker project. Great work to all those that worked on the Alias project!
- warkdarrior 8y agoI bet Echo and Home could be reprogrammed by Amazon/Google to listen all the time, learn what the Alias trigger word is, and speak/replay that word for the Alias shell whenever they feel like.
- kelnos 8y agoThat's not how this works. Alias plays white noise into the Home/Echo speaker so it can't hear what's going on, unless you first speak the Alias' wake word, which causes it to activate the Home/Echo and allow speech through.
- garysahota93 8y agoFrom my understanding, just because these devices are always listening, doesn't mean they are always recording. Only when you say the wake word do they start recording and only that information is used for advertising/etc. Right??
- TaylorAlexander 8y agoIt’s a closed source device with an always on internet connection and it silently accepts software updates. So... maybe? Certainly that is how they are marketed. But is that really how they behave? Does the software accept a command that would have it send back additional data on command? Could we know?
- squarefoot 8y agoAssuming they didn't do that already, a couple more mics in the device base with noise cancelling circuitry if implemented the analog way or in software will defeat this project in no time. I applaud the intent, but unless one knows for sure how many mics are there, including tiny MEMS devices like accelerometers that can be used as such, and can physically disconnect them all, there's no way to know the device isn't listening.
- maybelater 8y agoThis thread has gotten long, so here's a summary: - There is not evidence that these devices record and transmit without an activation word triggering this behavior - However, there is nothing to stop companies from breaking this assumption - Some people think the risk of one of these companies flipping a switch and recording everything is negligible - Some people think the risk of one of these companies flipping a switch and recording everything is warrants serious concern - These two groups will not agree, and that's fine :)
- dweekly 8y agoNice summary. For those who believe that one of these companies might (intentionally or accidentally) "flip the switch", would a project like this really do that much to persuade you that the device had now become safe for use? Or would you simply avoid knowingly purchasing any such devices? (In that sense I'm struggling to understand the true customer for a neat hack like this.)
- dublo7 8y agoThat's a good point. If you can already translate words you could implement some of the basic features like search on the same device.
- withinrafael 8y agoThere is hard evidence [1][2] you can remotely operate Echo recording capabilities without a wake word. Hope this puts the 'hardware limitation' claim to bed. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18905161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18905161 [2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Mme9d-ojpNo https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Mme9d-ojpNo
- VMG 8y agoI still don't get why a stationary assistant would be less trustworthy than a handheld phone. Shouldn't both devices be equally suspect?
- 8y ago
- MichaelMoser123 8y agotoday I learned that rain forest fungi hack an ants brain and cause the ant to spread the fungus further on. We live in a wonderous world. Here it says the fungus is pulling this trick only on its favorite ant species, amazing: https://www.livescience.com/47751-zombie-fungus-picky-about-ant-brains.html https://www.livescience.com/47751-zombie-fungus-picky-about-... https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/08/140825142124.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/08/140825142124.h... Wikipedia has a list of mind altering parasites; it turns out that this not a unique hack. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mind-altering_parasites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mind-altering_parasit... Scary stuff, don't read HN past bedtime! It's probably more tricky to pull of this trick with complicated brains, but who really knows how we tick and who is running us.
- charliebrownau 8y agoWhy are so many people willing to buy cloud based spying devices ?
- _____bee_____ 8y agoSnips (https://snips.ai/ https://snips.ai/) can be a good alternative
- who-knows95 8y agoim confused, how are people arguing about if amazon echo or other smart devices record conversation without the wake up prompt? -https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/woman-says-her-amazon-device-recorded-private-conversation-sent-it-out-to-random-contact/755507974 https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/woman-says-her-amazon-devic... amazons statement is: “Echo woke up due to a word in background conversation sounding like “Alexa.” Then, the subsequent conversation was heard as a “send message” request. At which point, Alexa said out loud “To whom?” At which point, the background conversation was interpreted as a name in the customers contact list. Alexa then asked out loud, “[contact name], right?” Alexa then interpreted background conversation as “right”. As unlikely as this string of events is, we are evaluating options to make this case even less likely.” -https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/28/17402154/how-to-see-amazon-echo-alexa-conversation-recording-history-listen https://www.theverge.com/2018/5/28/17402154/how-to-see-amazo... amazon "For these instances, Amazon claims that the devices were likely triggered by false positive commands." in my mind, it's not a question of if the device is recording you, because that's exactly what it's made for. it's a question of, if the company or even worse, govt. want to use these devices for spying or info gathering. we already know the NSA has back doors and exploits they explicitly decide to keep open so they can access devices for information gathering i.e spying. -https://www.wired.com/story/eternalblue-leaked-nsa-spy-tool-hacked-world/ https://www.wired.com/story/eternalblue-leaked-nsa-spy-tool-... so, i feel if you don't wish to open yourself up to the idea of a device spying on you, that's perfectly acceptable.