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The thing that would get me excited about mobile devices is the ability to run my own programs and access a real file system like a general purpose computer. Th

The thing that would get me excited about mobile devices is the ability to run my own programs and access a real file system like a general purpose computer. That would be a real improvement in capability along the lines of the first true smartphone with a touchscreen, browser, and GPS for turn-by-turn navigation.

tuukkah 8y ago
Android is Linux: it has a real file system that you can access. You can run your own programs on it as well.
- Jedi72 8y ago
  Running programs inside a sandbox is not what the OP is talking about. If you can't reinstall your own OS and get root permission* to talk to the hardware, you're not really in control of whats going on. *Im of course aware you can root Android phones and jailbreak iPhones, again this isnt what OP is talking about - they void warranties and are challenging/time consuming even for tech people.
  - v_lisivka 8y ago
    Some phones can be unblocked officially: https://motorola-global-portal.custhelp.com/app/standalone/bootloader/unlock-your-device-a https://motorola-global-portal.custhelp.com/app/standalone/b... However, I agree that OP is talking about document centered interface instead of application centered.
  - blfr 8y ago
    Back when I first installed Linux on a PC it was much more challenging than putting LineageOS on a phone. Especially getting full hardware support on a laptop took a lot of fiddling. Nowadays, Lineage will work perfectly OOTB 99% of the time. And 100% of the time if you buy a phone which is already compatible.
  - shawnz 8y ago
    Why do you need root access to the hardware for it to be considered a general purpose computing device? If someone provides you an account on a server where you don't have root access, would you not describe that a general purpose computer device with a real filesystem where you can run your own programs?
    - Jedi72 8y ago
      I would call it a general purpose computing device and also would say you're not in control of what's going on.
      - shawnz 8y ago
        Isn't your software the thing that's really "going on"? Who cares about the intricacies of how the hardware works? I understand being interested for hobbyist reasons, but is there a practical reason? EDIT: Here's another example. Let's say you have a VPS on which you have root, but you don't have ring 0 access on the machine where it's running. Are you in control then?
        chii 8y ago
        if the remote server has better IO and net access, but if you chose to use your own software, the vendor decides to cap you access (or force an inferior api on to you), then you have an equivalent analogy.
        shawnz 8y ago
        How does android cap TCP/IP access for the user?
        chii 8y ago
        I m talking about the camera features, the radio, and any other hardware features etc.
  - c22 8y ago
    The first time I rooted a phone and installed a custom ROM completely over the air while riding a bus I felt like a hacker god, but that was like 2012 or something. I'm honestly surprised everyone doesn't root their phone because at least on Android it really is trivial these days and fixes so many problems with the phone ecosystem. There's no excuse at all for someone honestly interested in running their own programs not bothering to figure this out.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  Android kernel is Linux, userspace is a mix of Java Frameworks hosted within ART, ISO C, ISO C++ and a couple of native APIs. Nowhere are Linux syscalls part of the official stable APIs.
CuriousSkeptic 8y ago
It’s probably not something that will happen. Computers got commoditized. Just how these things goes I guess. But I do agree. It’s sad to see the PC-era, and the free software ideals, die-off. Slowly the idea of running your own software on your own devices is becoing arcane.
- imjustsaying 8y ago
  >Slowly the idea of running your own software on your own devices is becoing arcane. Ever since I've been using computers (late 90's onward), my experience has been that running your own software has always been arcane. I can count on one hand people I've known in the flesh who've done this. Peoples' eyes get wide as if you're about to empty their bank account with your mind if you tell them you wrote a script or a program to do even the simplest of things. Joe and Jane Phonetypical of today wouldn't have been the proprietary software-creating types of yesterday, they would've been the AOL, Microsoft Word and solitaire-using types.
  - CuriousSkeptic 8y ago
    In my mind I included software of your own free choosing. As in, not only what’s in the app-store of your device, but that software the kid down the street hacked together for you. But yeah, I see your point. Of course my memory is somewhat clouded by the circle of people I choose to surround me with. (Edit: But even the 90s has started the downward slope. There was a time before that, and in first half when systems booted into a BASIC-interpreter) An interesting case to exemplify: Minecraft started out as java application. You downloaded a set of jar-files an ran. The software was proprietary, but it was yours to run, and java being what it is, was fairly simple to modify and extend. A large community of tinkeres and hackers grew up around this capability of modding the software in various ways. Then commoditization happens, Microsoft bought it, rewrite it in c++ and started selling it as a service with an app-store. Modding is still part of the echosystem, but the barrier to entry is sufficiently high that I have hard time imagine any new generations of hackers growing up as Minecraft modders.
    - 8y ago
js4ever 8y ago
This already exist it's called Android. I left IOS several years ago for the exact same reason
- saagarjha 8y ago
  Unfortunately, it seems like Android is moving in the direction of restricting access to these very things, either through preventing access to the bootloader or by preventing "rooting" :(
fghtr 8y ago
Here you go: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/
holri 8y ago
My Nokia N900 has real file system and can run any program that runs on Debian since 2009. Still my day to day mobile device because of that.
christophilus 8y ago
This is why the librem-5 is exciting to me.
Terretta 8y ago
There are always going to be muscle car enthusiast mechanics. However, needing tinkering is not generally a desirable capability from an everyday appliance. Ford is now down to a single gasoline car.
shaklee3 8y ago
Like this? https://www.samsung.com/us/business/products/mobile/phones/dex/ https://www.samsung.com/us/business/products/mobile/phones/d...

tuukkah 8y ago

Android is Linux: it has a real file system that you can access. You can run your own programs on it as well.

Jedi72 8y ago
Running programs inside a sandbox is not what the OP is talking about. If you can't reinstall your own OS and get root permission* to talk to the hardware, you're not really in control of whats going on. *Im of course aware you can root Android phones and jailbreak iPhones, again this isnt what OP is talking about - they void warranties and are challenging/time consuming even for tech people.
- v_lisivka 8y ago
  Some phones can be unblocked officially: https://motorola-global-portal.custhelp.com/app/standalone/bootloader/unlock-your-device-a https://motorola-global-portal.custhelp.com/app/standalone/b... However, I agree that OP is talking about document centered interface instead of application centered.
- blfr 8y ago
  Back when I first installed Linux on a PC it was much more challenging than putting LineageOS on a phone. Especially getting full hardware support on a laptop took a lot of fiddling. Nowadays, Lineage will work perfectly OOTB 99% of the time. And 100% of the time if you buy a phone which is already compatible.
- shawnz 8y ago
  Why do you need root access to the hardware for it to be considered a general purpose computing device? If someone provides you an account on a server where you don't have root access, would you not describe that a general purpose computer device with a real filesystem where you can run your own programs?
  - Jedi72 8y ago
    I would call it a general purpose computing device and also would say you're not in control of what's going on.
    - shawnz 8y ago
      Isn't your software the thing that's really "going on"? Who cares about the intricacies of how the hardware works? I understand being interested for hobbyist reasons, but is there a practical reason? EDIT: Here's another example. Let's say you have a VPS on which you have root, but you don't have ring 0 access on the machine where it's running. Are you in control then?
      - chii 8y ago
        if the remote server has better IO and net access, but if you chose to use your own software, the vendor decides to cap you access (or force an inferior api on to you), then you have an equivalent analogy.
        shawnz 8y ago
        How does android cap TCP/IP access for the user?
        chii 8y ago
        I m talking about the camera features, the radio, and any other hardware features etc.
- c22 8y ago
  The first time I rooted a phone and installed a custom ROM completely over the air while riding a bus I felt like a hacker god, but that was like 2012 or something. I'm honestly surprised everyone doesn't root their phone because at least on Android it really is trivial these days and fixes so many problems with the phone ecosystem. There's no excuse at all for someone honestly interested in running their own programs not bothering to figure this out.
pjmlp 8y ago
Android kernel is Linux, userspace is a mix of Java Frameworks hosted within ART, ISO C, ISO C++ and a couple of native APIs. Nowhere are Linux syscalls part of the official stable APIs.

CuriousSkeptic 8y ago

It’s probably not something that will happen. Computers got commoditized. Just how these things goes I guess. But I do agree. It’s sad to see the PC-era, and the free software ideals, die-off. Slowly the idea of running your own software on your own devices is becoing arcane.

imjustsaying 8y ago
>Slowly the idea of running your own software on your own devices is becoing arcane. Ever since I've been using computers (late 90's onward), my experience has been that running your own software has always been arcane. I can count on one hand people I've known in the flesh who've done this. Peoples' eyes get wide as if you're about to empty their bank account with your mind if you tell them you wrote a script or a program to do even the simplest of things. Joe and Jane Phonetypical of today wouldn't have been the proprietary software-creating types of yesterday, they would've been the AOL, Microsoft Word and solitaire-using types.
- CuriousSkeptic 8y ago
  In my mind I included software of your own free choosing. As in, not only what’s in the app-store of your device, but that software the kid down the street hacked together for you. But yeah, I see your point. Of course my memory is somewhat clouded by the circle of people I choose to surround me with. (Edit: But even the 90s has started the downward slope. There was a time before that, and in first half when systems booted into a BASIC-interpreter) An interesting case to exemplify: Minecraft started out as java application. You downloaded a set of jar-files an ran. The software was proprietary, but it was yours to run, and java being what it is, was fairly simple to modify and extend. A large community of tinkeres and hackers grew up around this capability of modding the software in various ways. Then commoditization happens, Microsoft bought it, rewrite it in c++ and started selling it as a service with an app-store. Modding is still part of the echosystem, but the barrier to entry is sufficiently high that I have hard time imagine any new generations of hackers growing up as Minecraft modders.
  - 8y ago

js4ever 8y ago

This already exist it's called Android. I left IOS several years ago for the exact same reason

saagarjha 8y ago
Unfortunately, it seems like Android is moving in the direction of restricting access to these very things, either through preventing access to the bootloader or by preventing "rooting" :(

fghtr 8y ago

Here you go: https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/ https://puri.sm/products/librem-5/

holri 8y ago

My Nokia N900 has real file system and can run any program that runs on Debian since 2009. Still my day to day mobile device because of that.

christophilus 8y ago

This is why the librem-5 is exciting to me.

Terretta 8y ago

There are always going to be muscle car enthusiast mechanics. However, needing tinkering is not generally a desirable capability from an everyday appliance. Ford is now down to a single gasoline car.

shaklee3 8y ago

Like this? https://www.samsung.com/us/business/products/mobile/phones/dex/ https://www.samsung.com/us/business/products/mobile/phones/d...