5 ms·

Nice idea at the end: > the government should require all land to be registered, with details of its beneficial owner, before it can receive farm subsidies.

dukoid 8y ago
How does one currently find the owner if he is not registered?
- Neil44 8y ago
  The land that the farmer is claiming subsidies for could be referenced to the land registry as part of the process. Although a lot of farmers rent land to each other so that complicates things a little.
  - Broken_Hippo 8y ago
    Only slightly. You can simply require that farm subsidies only go to land that is registered, even if the land is not owned by the person getting the subsidy.
    - masklinn 8y ago
      I assume farm subsidy submissions register where the activity is occurring: Caroline Lucas MP has submitted an amendment to the current Agriculture Bill which would require that > the land on which any activity is to be undertaken […] and for which the financial assistance is sought is registered with Her Majesty's Land Registry. So farm subsidy submissions would be cross-referenced with the Land Registry, and any such submissions listing unregistered land would be rejected off-hand.
- IshKebab 8y ago
  Sounds ridiculous but you basically can't. You can ask neighbours, try to look at historical maps etc. But there's no guarantee you will find the owner (if they exist). If you can't find the owner that doesn't mean there isn't one. They can turn up at any point with a deed that nobody else knows about and only they have a copy of and say "this is mine". Yes it's stupid.
  - Sniffnoy 8y ago
    I think the question is intended to be, "How does the owner presently receive farm subsidies if the land isn't registered and we don't know who owns it?"
    - masklinn 8y ago
      The subsidy recipient is not necessarily the owner e.g. following mutual agreement a farmer could graze their sheep on the neighbour's land which they don't own (because friendliness or usefulness or family history or specific allowances when the land was sold a hundred years back), and that land could be unregistered. I expect the idea here is that the subsidy seeker probably has an idea as to whose land it is they're using, and thus could go ping the owner for registration so they can get their subsidies back. This is especially likely if the registration is easy and free: chances are the owner simply has not bothered registering the land because they have no need to and can't be arsed, being asked to by an acquaintance would be sufficient a motivation to eventually check in with the local authorities.
    - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
      They - or more likely a front company - claims the subsidies. If a form goes in and the claim looks plausible, subsidies are paid. I strongly suspect title isn't checked. Interestingly, the UK has a "squatter's rights" law not many people know about. If you fence off some land and use it, it effectively becomes your property after a number of years if no one challenges you. I've seen people use this to extend their gardens into common land.
      - robin_reala 8y ago
        12 years (or at least it was in the early 90s): we let a neighbouring farmer graze his sheep on some land we had, but had to ceremoniously turf them out every so often to reset any possible claim in law.
        Sniffnoy 8y ago
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- 7952 8y ago
  It is common to just attach a letter to the gate.
- benj111 8y ago
  I think that's part of the problem, there isn't really. I suppose you could squat on it, and wait for someone to evict you.
crdoconnor 8y ago
They could simply say "register within 2 years or cede the land".
- benj111 8y ago
  Indeed. Although maybe don't word it quite like that. The aim isn't to confiscate land owned by someone, just for them to prove they actually do own it.
- 13of40 8y ago
  It would kind of suck for the people who (inevitably) live on a piece of land for which the papers have been lost.
  - onetimemanytime 8y ago
    Papers lost...means that land is lost. Unless you claim adverse possession. This land is now mine because I have here /worked it for xx years, in peace and no one else has claimed it. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/property/article-1348664/HOME-TRUTHS-How-long-I-claim-land-own.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/property/article-1348664/HOME-TR... But then it maybe tricky if you claim 451,222 acres or whatever.
    - 13of40 8y ago
      That's probably why adverse possession exists at all.
      - onetimemanytime 8y ago
        I think it exists so owners develop /work the land. Use it lose it. Keeps them on their toes and tax coming. Not much use to the state if I buy 10k hectares, leave as it is, and 800 years from now my descendants claim it.
  - technofiend 8y ago
    Hurricane Katrina exposed this sort of issue for people in New Orleans. Many residents couldn't produce documentation showing their ancestral homes belonged to them because there had been no impetus to maintain chain of ownership proof over the last hundred+ years.

dukoid 8y ago

How does one currently find the owner if he is not registered?

Neil44 8y ago
The land that the farmer is claiming subsidies for could be referenced to the land registry as part of the process. Although a lot of farmers rent land to each other so that complicates things a little.
- Broken_Hippo 8y ago
  Only slightly. You can simply require that farm subsidies only go to land that is registered, even if the land is not owned by the person getting the subsidy.
  - masklinn 8y ago
    I assume farm subsidy submissions register where the activity is occurring: Caroline Lucas MP has submitted an amendment to the current Agriculture Bill which would require that > the land on which any activity is to be undertaken […] and for which the financial assistance is sought is registered with Her Majesty's Land Registry. So farm subsidy submissions would be cross-referenced with the Land Registry, and any such submissions listing unregistered land would be rejected off-hand.
IshKebab 8y ago
Sounds ridiculous but you basically can't. You can ask neighbours, try to look at historical maps etc. But there's no guarantee you will find the owner (if they exist). If you can't find the owner that doesn't mean there isn't one. They can turn up at any point with a deed that nobody else knows about and only they have a copy of and say "this is mine". Yes it's stupid.
- Sniffnoy 8y ago
  I think the question is intended to be, "How does the owner presently receive farm subsidies if the land isn't registered and we don't know who owns it?"
  - masklinn 8y ago
    The subsidy recipient is not necessarily the owner e.g. following mutual agreement a farmer could graze their sheep on the neighbour's land which they don't own (because friendliness or usefulness or family history or specific allowances when the land was sold a hundred years back), and that land could be unregistered. I expect the idea here is that the subsidy seeker probably has an idea as to whose land it is they're using, and thus could go ping the owner for registration so they can get their subsidies back. This is especially likely if the registration is easy and free: chances are the owner simply has not bothered registering the land because they have no need to and can't be arsed, being asked to by an acquaintance would be sufficient a motivation to eventually check in with the local authorities.
  - TheOtherHobbes 8y ago
    They - or more likely a front company - claims the subsidies. If a form goes in and the claim looks plausible, subsidies are paid. I strongly suspect title isn't checked. Interestingly, the UK has a "squatter's rights" law not many people know about. If you fence off some land and use it, it effectively becomes your property after a number of years if no one challenges you. I've seen people use this to extend their gardens into common land.
    - robin_reala 8y ago
      12 years (or at least it was in the early 90s): we let a neighbouring farmer graze his sheep on some land we had, but had to ceremoniously turf them out every so often to reset any possible claim in law.
      - Sniffnoy 8y ago
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
7952 8y ago
It is common to just attach a letter to the gate.
benj111 8y ago
I think that's part of the problem, there isn't really. I suppose you could squat on it, and wait for someone to evict you.

crdoconnor 8y ago

They could simply say "register within 2 years or cede the land".

benj111 8y ago
Indeed. Although maybe don't word it quite like that. The aim isn't to confiscate land owned by someone, just for them to prove they actually do own it.
13of40 8y ago
It would kind of suck for the people who (inevitably) live on a piece of land for which the papers have been lost.
- onetimemanytime 8y ago
  Papers lost...means that land is lost. Unless you claim adverse possession. This land is now mine because I have here /worked it for xx years, in peace and no one else has claimed it. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/property/article-1348664/HOME-TRUTHS-How-long-I-claim-land-own.html https://www.dailymail.co.uk/property/article-1348664/HOME-TR... But then it maybe tricky if you claim 451,222 acres or whatever.
  - 13of40 8y ago
    That's probably why adverse possession exists at all.
    - onetimemanytime 8y ago
      I think it exists so owners develop /work the land. Use it lose it. Keeps them on their toes and tax coming. Not much use to the state if I buy 10k hectares, leave as it is, and 800 years from now my descendants claim it.
- technofiend 8y ago
  Hurricane Katrina exposed this sort of issue for people in New Orleans. Many residents couldn't produce documentation showing their ancestral homes belonged to them because there had been no impetus to maintain chain of ownership proof over the last hundred+ years.