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Kinda saturated of the so called "censorship-free"-Patreon solutions if you follow the space, but the whole point is to not have to trust that someone won't blo

by kbody 8y ago

Kinda saturated of the so called "censorship-free"-Patreon solutions if you follow the space, but the whole point is to not have to trust that someone won't block you. So a solution is not yet another platform but everyone (that cares enough) to run their own decentralized way of accepting payments/support. Just install BtcPayServer ( https://btcpayserver.org/ https://btcpayserver.org/ ) and you can start accepting payments in Bitcoin and other coins even via LN, without having to trust any intermediary plus no extra middlemen fees.

stcredzero 8y ago
What's needed is an app that lets people donate in a low friction way. I had been using Patreon as a poor man's micropayments. I'd like to see (or make) a "pay them somehow" web app, that keeps tabs on creator's payment methods, and after some judicious setup, takes care of all the rigamarole of donating for you. Crypto, Paypal, etc. Such a system could even cut checks and mail them, if needed. (For some extra fees.) Ideally, I could do something like set my monthly expenditure at something like $40, and I could nominate a list of creators, and they could all just get $1 per month.
- toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
  How do you make and implement such a thing without turning it into the mother of all money laundries?
  - njarboe 8y ago
    Life would be so much better without an income tax. It's a bad idea to tax people trading with each other. Win/win actions are something that should be encouraged. I'd support some kind of national land value tax in the US if we nullified the 16th amendment at the same time.
    - drenvuk 8y ago
      I don't agree with this. Wealth was tied to land in the past but not anymore. If there were something that could be equated with a land as a resource then I'd support the effort but an income tax is more of a catch all for the various ways that wealth can be generated. I think it's a rule that should be used in a more effective (and simpler) manner but I definitely still support an income tax.
      - manfredo 8y ago
        Asset taxes is effectively that. But assets are a lot easier to hide than income, and there's nothing stopping wealthy people from moving somewhere else. France's asset tax is estimated to have caused large amounts of capital to leave the country.
        drenvuk 8y ago
        This might be a silly question but when do you think there will be a global tax? Something akin to a world government tax? The US has it to some extent when it taxes citizens outside the country but even that can be escaped. There was someone who said something like "Don't tax money that can move." It would be interesting to see all of the countries figure out a way for it to happen anyway.
        mandelbrotwurst 8y ago
        I suppose that would happen as soon as there were an entity with the capability to (i.e. means of enforcement) and interest in doing so.
        ekianjo 8y ago
        That would be akin to be back in serf mode. If you can't escape taxes anymore, there is nothing preventing a "worldwide government" to tax people to death. I guess this is when people may want to move to Mars or something.
        manfredo 8y ago
        A global tax would be feasible if all governments are on good terms, and are willing to cooperate on their taxes and surveillance of assets. I do not predict this happening any time soon. The US taxes citizens abroad, but you get to deduct taxes paid to your country of residence. Since the US has relatively low taxes, this usually means citizens abroad pay no taxes to the US. It may be more nuanced than that. I have never filed taxes while living abroad, this is just my immediate recollection.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    Actually implement Patreon's rules of conduct and abide by them. What Patreon has been doing doesn't even fit with what Jack Conte said they were doing, and what their terms of service actually say. The reason given why Sargon of Akkad was banned, was because he used some unsavory language to try and offend white nationalists on a YouTube stream apart from Patreon and not on his own channels. And yet, some searching revealed that Patreon has other creators who use the same language on Patreon who were not banned. Furthermore, there is funding of groups engaging in violence on Patreon, but this isn't being banned in accordance to their terms of service. (Many say this is because those groups are farther left leaning.) How does Go Fund Me keep from turning into the mother of all money laundries?
    - toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
      I’m totally disinterested in a political discussion here, I’m just asking about how your idea could comply with anti-laundering, KYC laws and regulations. As to how GoFundMe works, they cooperate with law enforcement and say so in their TOS, as well as adhering to KYC for withdrawal. https://support.gofundme.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001977868-Requirements-to-Withdraw https://support.gofundme.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001977868-...
      - stcredzero 8y ago
        There would have to be an implementation of KYC. My idea, at least initially, would be to vet lists of creators manually, based on current prominence in social media.
        mirimir 8y ago
        That's only necessary if the service is subject to US jurisdiction, directly or indirectly. No service that's subject to any nation's jurisdiction could be considered truly "censorship-free". Because, you know, said nation could censor it.
        stcredzero 8y ago
  - mirimir 8y ago
    Some of us don't believe that online payment systems need concern themselves with that. Especially if preventing money laundering basically means having no online privacy.
    - toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
      People believe all kinds of things, but unless there’s more than a snowball’s chance in hell of changing the law to accommodate their beliefs, I spend my limited time considering other viewpoints. I don’t see any chance of these laws changing in favor of your beliefs, and I’m having this discussion in the world as it exists.
      - mirimir 8y ago
        Hey, I bet that you violate Saudi anti-pornography laws every day. Perhaps alcohol-abuse laws, as well.
        toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
        Definitely, and as a result I wisely stay the hell out of Saudi Arabia. I’m also known to avoid North Korea while I’m at it. I certainly don’t try to change their legal system from my keyboard.
        mirimir 8y ago
        Unfortunately, just staying out of the US doesn't protect you from them. You're just lucky that Saudi Arabia etc don't have the reach.
        colejohnson66 8y ago
        Exactly. Can you imagine if Saudi Arabia tried to have you extradited for a crime that was illegal there, but legal here? On a side note, isn’t that what’s happening with Kim Dotcom?
- PretzelPirate 8y ago
  Like Brave payments?
ninguem2 8y ago
Why is there need for software to accept bitcoin donations? Can't one just put the bitcoin address on the website?
- flyingfences 8y ago
  BTCPay has more "merchant" oriented features, like generating a new address for each transaction and keeping track of them so that, for example, you can see who has paid and who hasn't. The obvious application for this is a web store, where you need to wait for payment before shipping a product; but, it could also be used in patronage scenarios where paying patrons get access to exclusive content.
- arthurcolle 8y ago
  Right off the bat I imagine that there is a more reliable income stream with some of the patronage sites that exist, whereas with a Bitcoin address in the footer, you are only relying on a single one-time donation.
- agorabinary 8y ago
  The goal of BTCPay server is to use the Lightning Network for Bitcoin payments, which only generates single-use payment requests. Also important to point out that LN will not be functional for years, so...
  - Erlich_Bachman 8y ago
    You seem to be misinformed about this because LN is absolutely functional today already. What are you talking about? Is it not functional in BTCPay server perhaps? Nevertheless, the network itself functions already and functions well. (Adoption will take time to spread, yes.)
    - agorabinary 8y ago
      "Absolutely functional" is when a user can send+receive a payment as effortlessly as Venmo. You cannot do this with LN at any time in the near future - routing payments, automatic channel management, sending a push payment, etc. I don't mean to bash LN but its simply disingenuous when people suggest these features are anything but pre-alpha
thefounder 8y ago
Most of the fees are at the fiat conversion step. Usually they are higher(i.e 10%) than credit card fees. Not to mention the loss due volatility. Cryptocurrencies are not good for payments unless they are pegged to a fiat currency(i.e euro).
bitpatron-co 8y ago
We strongly support all initiatives that support free speech and Bitcoin. Of course this solution is fine for those who have tech background and can handle the necessary customizations. But our mission is to provide a user friendly censorship-free Patreon alternative for everyone, including all the necessary features: all integrations, video hosting, etc. To achieve this goal, we need to sustain our 6 dev team to work full time and deliver a top notch product. We would love to do it without needing to charge, but it's not possible tbh. Ads rev isn't even an option for us. Also, we will use the revenue to create marketing and edutional campaigns to educate others and help Bitcoin - the free speech money - achieve mass adoption.

by kbody 8y ago

stcredzero 8y ago

What's needed is an app that lets people donate in a low friction way. I had been using Patreon as a poor man's micropayments. I'd like to see (or make) a "pay them somehow" web app, that keeps tabs on creator's payment methods, and after some judicious setup, takes care of all the rigamarole of donating for you. Crypto, Paypal, etc. Such a system could even cut checks and mail them, if needed. (For some extra fees.) Ideally, I could do something like set my monthly expenditure at something like $40, and I could nominate a list of creators, and they could all just get $1 per month.

toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
How do you make and implement such a thing without turning it into the mother of all money laundries?
- njarboe 8y ago
  Life would be so much better without an income tax. It's a bad idea to tax people trading with each other. Win/win actions are something that should be encouraged. I'd support some kind of national land value tax in the US if we nullified the 16th amendment at the same time.
  - drenvuk 8y ago
    I don't agree with this. Wealth was tied to land in the past but not anymore. If there were something that could be equated with a land as a resource then I'd support the effort but an income tax is more of a catch all for the various ways that wealth can be generated. I think it's a rule that should be used in a more effective (and simpler) manner but I definitely still support an income tax.
    - manfredo 8y ago
      Asset taxes is effectively that. But assets are a lot easier to hide than income, and there's nothing stopping wealthy people from moving somewhere else. France's asset tax is estimated to have caused large amounts of capital to leave the country.
      - drenvuk 8y ago
        This might be a silly question but when do you think there will be a global tax? Something akin to a world government tax? The US has it to some extent when it taxes citizens outside the country but even that can be escaped. There was someone who said something like "Don't tax money that can move." It would be interesting to see all of the countries figure out a way for it to happen anyway.
        mandelbrotwurst 8y ago
        I suppose that would happen as soon as there were an entity with the capability to (i.e. means of enforcement) and interest in doing so.
        ekianjo 8y ago
        That would be akin to be back in serf mode. If you can't escape taxes anymore, there is nothing preventing a "worldwide government" to tax people to death. I guess this is when people may want to move to Mars or something.
        manfredo 8y ago
        A global tax would be feasible if all governments are on good terms, and are willing to cooperate on their taxes and surveillance of assets. I do not predict this happening any time soon. The US taxes citizens abroad, but you get to deduct taxes paid to your country of residence. Since the US has relatively low taxes, this usually means citizens abroad pay no taxes to the US. It may be more nuanced than that. I have never filed taxes while living abroad, this is just my immediate recollection.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Actually implement Patreon's rules of conduct and abide by them. What Patreon has been doing doesn't even fit with what Jack Conte said they were doing, and what their terms of service actually say. The reason given why Sargon of Akkad was banned, was because he used some unsavory language to try and offend white nationalists on a YouTube stream apart from Patreon and not on his own channels. And yet, some searching revealed that Patreon has other creators who use the same language on Patreon who were not banned. Furthermore, there is funding of groups engaging in violence on Patreon, but this isn't being banned in accordance to their terms of service. (Many say this is because those groups are farther left leaning.) How does Go Fund Me keep from turning into the mother of all money laundries?
  - toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
    I’m totally disinterested in a political discussion here, I’m just asking about how your idea could comply with anti-laundering, KYC laws and regulations. As to how GoFundMe works, they cooperate with law enforcement and say so in their TOS, as well as adhering to KYC for withdrawal. https://support.gofundme.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001977868-Requirements-to-Withdraw https://support.gofundme.com/hc/en-us/articles/360001977868-...
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      There would have to be an implementation of KYC. My idea, at least initially, would be to vet lists of creators manually, based on current prominence in social media.
      - mirimir 8y ago
        That's only necessary if the service is subject to US jurisdiction, directly or indirectly. No service that's subject to any nation's jurisdiction could be considered truly "censorship-free". Because, you know, said nation could censor it.
        stcredzero 8y ago
- mirimir 8y ago
  Some of us don't believe that online payment systems need concern themselves with that. Especially if preventing money laundering basically means having no online privacy.
  - toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
    People believe all kinds of things, but unless there’s more than a snowball’s chance in hell of changing the law to accommodate their beliefs, I spend my limited time considering other viewpoints. I don’t see any chance of these laws changing in favor of your beliefs, and I’m having this discussion in the world as it exists.
    - mirimir 8y ago
      Hey, I bet that you violate Saudi anti-pornography laws every day. Perhaps alcohol-abuse laws, as well.
      - toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
        Definitely, and as a result I wisely stay the hell out of Saudi Arabia. I’m also known to avoid North Korea while I’m at it. I certainly don’t try to change their legal system from my keyboard.
        mirimir 8y ago
        Unfortunately, just staying out of the US doesn't protect you from them. You're just lucky that Saudi Arabia etc don't have the reach.
        colejohnson66 8y ago
        Exactly. Can you imagine if Saudi Arabia tried to have you extradited for a crime that was illegal there, but legal here? On a side note, isn’t that what’s happening with Kim Dotcom?
PretzelPirate 8y ago
Like Brave payments?

ninguem2 8y ago

Why is there need for software to accept bitcoin donations? Can't one just put the bitcoin address on the website?

flyingfences 8y ago
BTCPay has more "merchant" oriented features, like generating a new address for each transaction and keeping track of them so that, for example, you can see who has paid and who hasn't. The obvious application for this is a web store, where you need to wait for payment before shipping a product; but, it could also be used in patronage scenarios where paying patrons get access to exclusive content.
arthurcolle 8y ago
Right off the bat I imagine that there is a more reliable income stream with some of the patronage sites that exist, whereas with a Bitcoin address in the footer, you are only relying on a single one-time donation.
agorabinary 8y ago
The goal of BTCPay server is to use the Lightning Network for Bitcoin payments, which only generates single-use payment requests. Also important to point out that LN will not be functional for years, so...
- Erlich_Bachman 8y ago
  You seem to be misinformed about this because LN is absolutely functional today already. What are you talking about? Is it not functional in BTCPay server perhaps? Nevertheless, the network itself functions already and functions well. (Adoption will take time to spread, yes.)
  - agorabinary 8y ago
    "Absolutely functional" is when a user can send+receive a payment as effortlessly as Venmo. You cannot do this with LN at any time in the near future - routing payments, automatic channel management, sending a push payment, etc. I don't mean to bash LN but its simply disingenuous when people suggest these features are anything but pre-alpha

thefounder 8y ago

Most of the fees are at the fiat conversion step. Usually they are higher(i.e 10%) than credit card fees. Not to mention the loss due volatility. Cryptocurrencies are not good for payments unless they are pegged to a fiat currency(i.e euro).

bitpatron-co 8y ago

We strongly support all initiatives that support free speech and Bitcoin. Of course this solution is fine for those who have tech background and can handle the necessary customizations. But our mission is to provide a user friendly censorship-free Patreon alternative for everyone, including all the necessary features: all integrations, video hosting, etc. To achieve this goal, we need to sustain our 6 dev team to work full time and deliver a top notch product. We would love to do it without needing to charge, but it's not possible tbh. Ads rev isn't even an option for us. Also, we will use the revenue to create marketing and edutional campaigns to educate others and help Bitcoin - the free speech money - achieve mass adoption.