6 ms·

This is assuming one can get hired by a FAANG, which is not true for many.

billconan 8y ago
I’m about to join a startup. I just want to do meaningful work and learn new things. I view it as a learning experience. I am so fed up with corporation life. I don’t see a way out other than joining a startup or starting my own. I don’t want to deal with project managers and fill their spreadsheets anymore. The most valuable thing I have is the remaining time I have in this life. Not the number in my bank account.
- jonathanyc 8y ago
  > I don’t want to deal with project managers and fill their spreadsheets anymore. Oh boy are you in for a surprise. Whether a company is a startup or not is almost entirely orthogonal to a culture of “filling out spreadsheets.”
- hsk0823 8y ago
  Careful what you wish for, startups have people who will wear as many different hats as required to make it work. Corporate life may have had a really well defined job role, that may not be true in any startup you join.
  - billconan 8y ago
    I think I'm very entrepreneurial. "wear as many different hats as required to make it work", this is basically what I do for my side projects. I write both the web frontend (vue) and backend (in c++), do devops, content marketing, whereas my day job is device driver development.
    - tiuPapa 8y ago
      > Backend in C++ Why? Is that simply because you are more familiar with the language or does the project actually require the raw power of Cpp?
      - billconan 8y ago
        1. manage the cost. I fund my project out of my pocket. knowing how expensive AWS could be (through my day job), I'd keep my code efficient. 2. yes, familiarity.
        tiuPapa 8y ago
        Cool to know. Do you use any framework for the backend? And if you don't mind what's the project? I am thinking about using Rust for one of my projects but I am still unsure if I should use it instead of something like NodeJs or Python.
- x220 8y ago
  >The most valuable thing I have is the remaining time I have in this life Then why work for a startup? Most will demand a huge amount of your time compared to other jobs. Why not pick a job which demands a sane amount of your time and spend your free time on relationships and hobbies?
  - billconan 8y ago
    the startup is in robotics, highly aligned with my interests.
    - x220 8y ago
      All the startup employees I've talked to work 80 hours a week. Why is robots so important to you that you're willing to accomplish absolutely nothing in at least a few of the important areas of your life such as health and fitness, friendships, romantic relationships, extraneous interests, relaxation, or family?
      - billconan 8y ago
        there are 2 kinds of engineers, one kind sent rockets and recollected them, made robots run and jump. The other kind, shrank blog posts to 140 characters, or added a timeout to short messages, removed the thumb down button, and called them a new feature. Today, we still remember the names of da Vinci, Tesla, Turing, not because they had a successful family ... I just want to keep the dream I had as a kid.
        dta5003 8y ago
        It's not for everyone, but it sounds like you know what you want, and you are in the position to do it. Go for it!
        x220 8y ago
        >Today, we still remember the names of So you're living based on how you will be remembered by strangers? That sounds incredibly unfulfilling and doesn't sound like a good way to live. In a few hundred more years almost no one will remember the names of those people either. >da Vinci, Tesla, Turing It's incredibly safe to say that you are not going to be as successful as these people. Almost no one achieves this much success in the sciences. At most you will probably advance your field by a few useful steps and then be personally forgotten about except in research paper footnotes. >not because they had a successful family You know who cares about you and remembers you more significantly than as a research footnote? Your family. >I just want to keep the dream I had as a kid Man, don't we all.
- woolvalley 8y ago
  I work at a big tech co. I almost never fill out any spreadsheet, use JIRA, use a ticketing system that strongly, worry about 'user stories', have 'hurry up and wait' deadlines and so on. Maybe go to another big co?
  - mi100hael 8y ago
    I wouldn't say all of those things are bad things. I'd hope even the smallest of startups is thinking about how users interact with their software and organizing those interactions into some sort of prioritized backlog for development.
    - woolvalley 8y ago
      We definitely have a planning process, I do write things down into design docs, and do keep track of things in some spreadsheets, docs and tickets. But I don't find it an excessive, oppressive or impractical process, which is probably what the parent post is hinting to.
  - foobiekr 8y ago
    I would love to know about the list of "good" big companies (and good teams within them). In my direct experience, the big companies are soul crushing and monotonous and one is surrounded by mediocrity.
    - woolvalley 8y ago
      The best way to find out is to go interview at big cos, and ask them about all of your worries about process. One team can have a ton of process, the other can barely have any. It's really mostly a team and department basis thing. In my limited experience in talking with other people, FAANG tends to not have as much process as finance, IBM, insurance or other 'boring big companies'.
eanzenberg 8y ago
Conversely, this assumes one can get hired at a startup with a high position and equity to match fang comp, which is not true for many.
- dunpeal 8y ago
  It's not true for almost anyone. Conversely, if you can get hired to a unicorn in a position that's senior enough to have any hope of coming anywhere near top tech pay, then you are likely talented enough to work at top tech instead.
  - eanzenberg 8y ago
    Not necessarily, as talents at that level which are valued in top tech may be different than talents at that level that are valued at growing startups. There a variety of companies that pay top dollar for talent, straddling early stage startups all the way through established companies. That doesn't mean it's easy to get those jobs. It does mean that you should apply your talents where it fits. BTW, you don't need to be at a unicorn to earn top EV. 1% of a 100M exit is 1M, which is more than the vast majority of equity grants I've heard of from FANG. Many people put 0 value on startup equity. Those people decrease their lifetime EV through misconceptions of statistics.
    - dunpeal 8y ago
      > Not necessarily, as talents at that level which are valued in top tech may be different than talents at that level that are valued at growing startups. I worked at both. Talent overlap is quite high, far higher than is commonly assumed. > There a variety of companies that pay top dollar for talent, straddling early stage startups all the way through established companies. I worked in startups for many years, and most of my friends still in the field are either founders or C-level execs. They are fully aware of the top compensation for top engineers in startups presently. Startups don't match top tech comp currently. Unless you factor in the options as a sure thing, and the startup ends up exiting at unicorn levels. > Many people put 0 value on startup equity. Those people decrease their lifetime EV through misconceptions of statistics. This is a reflection of how many people have spent precious years of their career working for startups, and generally seeing 0 return on these options. It's also a reflection of the perceived lack of control over this sort of deferred compensation, and various nasty dynamics that often snatch value away from rank-and-file employees, even at the last minute or past it. See the LinkedIn exit and their infamous clawback policy. Startup options have earned this reputation for 0 value over a decade of overhype and underperformance. Far too many talented people were promised the sky and ended up with nothing after years of hard work.
cdoxsey 8y ago
Thank you for saying this. The point about FAANG paying so much gets made a lot, and that employees of startups are fools for their decisions, as if everyone's handed a dozen offers and makes a choice. Most of us are lucky to get a single offer, sometimes after months of trying, so we take what we are given. The rosy picture portrayed on HN isn't at all accurate to my experience. Though to be fair my current salary, as far as it is from the unrealistic portrayal of salaries here, still feels far better than almost any other job I would remotely have the capacity to do, and certainly far more than I need to live and have a pretty easy life if I were honest. I'm payed a crazy amount of money to do something I love.
- adventured 8y ago
  These two statements contrasted is pretty fascinating: > The rosy picture portrayed on HN isn't at all accurate to my experience. > I'm payed a crazy amount of money ["far more than I need to live and have a pretty easy life"] to do something I love. You're living the rosy picture portrayed on HN. You react to $400k the same way most people would react to what you're describing.
  - cdoxsey 8y ago
    Sorry if I wasn't clear. I don't make 400k per year and I've tried to work at high paying tech companies in the bay area in the past and was rejected many times. At one point I was close to giving up on being a developer entirely after months of failing to find work, though thankfully I had a friend from a former job who helped give me a legup to a startup he was working for. It was that painful experience which made me grateful for what I have, even if its looked down on so much by my peers. I realized how lucky I was to be working at all. The rosy picture I was referring too wasn't so much the salary as the ability of software engineers to get these jobs. In my experience it was a lot more like a professional sport (spend decades working and practicing in this field and you still don't have what it takes) than finding a store with a help-wanted sign and filling out an application. I guess there's something of a paradox there... its a weird industry.

I’m about to join a startup. I just want to do meaningful work and learn new things. I view it as a learning experience. I am so fed up with corporation life. I don’t see a way out other than joining a startup or starting my own. I don’t want to deal with project managers and fill their spreadsheets anymore. The most valuable thing I have is the remaining time I have in this life. Not the number in my bank account.

jonathanyc 8y ago
> I don’t want to deal with project managers and fill their spreadsheets anymore. Oh boy are you in for a surprise. Whether a company is a startup or not is almost entirely orthogonal to a culture of “filling out spreadsheets.”
hsk0823 8y ago
Careful what you wish for, startups have people who will wear as many different hats as required to make it work. Corporate life may have had a really well defined job role, that may not be true in any startup you join.
- billconan 8y ago
  I think I'm very entrepreneurial. "wear as many different hats as required to make it work", this is basically what I do for my side projects. I write both the web frontend (vue) and backend (in c++), do devops, content marketing, whereas my day job is device driver development.
  - tiuPapa 8y ago
    > Backend in C++ Why? Is that simply because you are more familiar with the language or does the project actually require the raw power of Cpp?
    - billconan 8y ago
      1. manage the cost. I fund my project out of my pocket. knowing how expensive AWS could be (through my day job), I'd keep my code efficient. 2. yes, familiarity.
      - tiuPapa 8y ago
        Cool to know. Do you use any framework for the backend? And if you don't mind what's the project? I am thinking about using Rust for one of my projects but I am still unsure if I should use it instead of something like NodeJs or Python.
x220 8y ago
>The most valuable thing I have is the remaining time I have in this life Then why work for a startup? Most will demand a huge amount of your time compared to other jobs. Why not pick a job which demands a sane amount of your time and spend your free time on relationships and hobbies?
- billconan 8y ago
  the startup is in robotics, highly aligned with my interests.
  - x220 8y ago
    All the startup employees I've talked to work 80 hours a week. Why is robots so important to you that you're willing to accomplish absolutely nothing in at least a few of the important areas of your life such as health and fitness, friendships, romantic relationships, extraneous interests, relaxation, or family?
    - billconan 8y ago
      there are 2 kinds of engineers, one kind sent rockets and recollected them, made robots run and jump. The other kind, shrank blog posts to 140 characters, or added a timeout to short messages, removed the thumb down button, and called them a new feature. Today, we still remember the names of da Vinci, Tesla, Turing, not because they had a successful family ... I just want to keep the dream I had as a kid.
      - dta5003 8y ago
        It's not for everyone, but it sounds like you know what you want, and you are in the position to do it. Go for it!
      - x220 8y ago
        >Today, we still remember the names of So you're living based on how you will be remembered by strangers? That sounds incredibly unfulfilling and doesn't sound like a good way to live. In a few hundred more years almost no one will remember the names of those people either. >da Vinci, Tesla, Turing It's incredibly safe to say that you are not going to be as successful as these people. Almost no one achieves this much success in the sciences. At most you will probably advance your field by a few useful steps and then be personally forgotten about except in research paper footnotes. >not because they had a successful family You know who cares about you and remembers you more significantly than as a research footnote? Your family. >I just want to keep the dream I had as a kid Man, don't we all.
woolvalley 8y ago
I work at a big tech co. I almost never fill out any spreadsheet, use JIRA, use a ticketing system that strongly, worry about 'user stories', have 'hurry up and wait' deadlines and so on. Maybe go to another big co?
- mi100hael 8y ago
  I wouldn't say all of those things are bad things. I'd hope even the smallest of startups is thinking about how users interact with their software and organizing those interactions into some sort of prioritized backlog for development.
  - woolvalley 8y ago
    We definitely have a planning process, I do write things down into design docs, and do keep track of things in some spreadsheets, docs and tickets. But I don't find it an excessive, oppressive or impractical process, which is probably what the parent post is hinting to.
- foobiekr 8y ago
  I would love to know about the list of "good" big companies (and good teams within them). In my direct experience, the big companies are soul crushing and monotonous and one is surrounded by mediocrity.
  - woolvalley 8y ago
    The best way to find out is to go interview at big cos, and ask them about all of your worries about process. One team can have a ton of process, the other can barely have any. It's really mostly a team and department basis thing. In my limited experience in talking with other people, FAANG tends to not have as much process as finance, IBM, insurance or other 'boring big companies'.

eanzenberg 8y ago

Conversely, this assumes one can get hired at a startup with a high position and equity to match fang comp, which is not true for many.

dunpeal 8y ago
It's not true for almost anyone. Conversely, if you can get hired to a unicorn in a position that's senior enough to have any hope of coming anywhere near top tech pay, then you are likely talented enough to work at top tech instead.
- eanzenberg 8y ago
  Not necessarily, as talents at that level which are valued in top tech may be different than talents at that level that are valued at growing startups. There a variety of companies that pay top dollar for talent, straddling early stage startups all the way through established companies. That doesn't mean it's easy to get those jobs. It does mean that you should apply your talents where it fits. BTW, you don't need to be at a unicorn to earn top EV. 1% of a 100M exit is 1M, which is more than the vast majority of equity grants I've heard of from FANG. Many people put 0 value on startup equity. Those people decrease their lifetime EV through misconceptions of statistics.
  - dunpeal 8y ago
    > Not necessarily, as talents at that level which are valued in top tech may be different than talents at that level that are valued at growing startups. I worked at both. Talent overlap is quite high, far higher than is commonly assumed. > There a variety of companies that pay top dollar for talent, straddling early stage startups all the way through established companies. I worked in startups for many years, and most of my friends still in the field are either founders or C-level execs. They are fully aware of the top compensation for top engineers in startups presently. Startups don't match top tech comp currently. Unless you factor in the options as a sure thing, and the startup ends up exiting at unicorn levels. > Many people put 0 value on startup equity. Those people decrease their lifetime EV through misconceptions of statistics. This is a reflection of how many people have spent precious years of their career working for startups, and generally seeing 0 return on these options. It's also a reflection of the perceived lack of control over this sort of deferred compensation, and various nasty dynamics that often snatch value away from rank-and-file employees, even at the last minute or past it. See the LinkedIn exit and their infamous clawback policy. Startup options have earned this reputation for 0 value over a decade of overhype and underperformance. Far too many talented people were promised the sky and ended up with nothing after years of hard work.

cdoxsey 8y ago

Thank you for saying this. The point about FAANG paying so much gets made a lot, and that employees of startups are fools for their decisions, as if everyone's handed a dozen offers and makes a choice. Most of us are lucky to get a single offer, sometimes after months of trying, so we take what we are given. The rosy picture portrayed on HN isn't at all accurate to my experience. Though to be fair my current salary, as far as it is from the unrealistic portrayal of salaries here, still feels far better than almost any other job I would remotely have the capacity to do, and certainly far more than I need to live and have a pretty easy life if I were honest. I'm payed a crazy amount of money to do something I love.

adventured 8y ago
These two statements contrasted is pretty fascinating: > The rosy picture portrayed on HN isn't at all accurate to my experience. > I'm payed a crazy amount of money ["far more than I need to live and have a pretty easy life"] to do something I love. You're living the rosy picture portrayed on HN. You react to $400k the same way most people would react to what you're describing.
- cdoxsey 8y ago
  Sorry if I wasn't clear. I don't make 400k per year and I've tried to work at high paying tech companies in the bay area in the past and was rejected many times. At one point I was close to giving up on being a developer entirely after months of failing to find work, though thankfully I had a friend from a former job who helped give me a legup to a startup he was working for. It was that painful experience which made me grateful for what I have, even if its looked down on so much by my peers. I realized how lucky I was to be working at all. The rosy picture I was referring too wasn't so much the salary as the ability of software engineers to get these jobs. In my experience it was a lot more like a professional sport (spend decades working and practicing in this field and you still don't have what it takes) than finding a store with a help-wanted sign and filling out an application. I guess there's something of a paradox there... its a weird industry.