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> I decide to do a full charge as my hotel is still 145 miles away. It takes a tedious 85 minutes, and I dine on a Whopper and fries. It blows my mind that peo

by yholio 8y ago

> I decide to do a full charge as my hotel is still 145 miles away. It takes a tedious 85 minutes, and I dine on a Whopper and fries. It blows my mind that people think recharging their cars on the go can be the future of transportation. I understand that with good driver education and planning, the hassles of charging can be circumvented. I have a tremendous amount of respect for those that put in the effort: you are doing the pioneering work and boot starting a green revolution, I might join you soon. That being said, for the average consumer electrics cannot represent a compelling alternative for an internal combustion car until battery swap technology is ubiquitous. The majority of people will simply not give up the convenience of fast refills, unless the cost of driving a petrol car rises significantly while the affordability and electrics increases dramatically. Even then, it will be seen by many as the low cost, inferior product. A rechargeable car a significantly more inconvenient product for most consumers, so it has a lower value that has to be compensated somehow.

davideous 8y ago
Does any electric car have an option where you can place a portable gasoline generator in the frunk and then trickle charge the battery while you drive on a road trip (with appropriate venting of exhaust). If not, why not? I've seen very small, quiet gasoline generators. I would think this could solve this problem easily at the expense of a small amount of storage space.
- woofyman 8y ago
  You’re describing a plug in hybrid or a serial hybrid like the Chevy Volt.
  - pitaj 8y ago
    Except the engine isn't always there as taking up extra space and weight.
    - saalweachter 8y ago
      Weight probably isn't a problem - a Chevy Volt weighs a lot less than a Tesla S. You don't even save much by keeping the gas tank mostly empty when you aren't expecting to need it -- the gas weighs ~6 lbs / gallon, so you might save 50 lbs by keeping the tank on 1/4 when you aren't planning to drive past the battery range. Think about it this way: batteries are really heavy, and the Tesla has like 5x more battery capacity than a Volt. Meanwhile, if you're mostly making short trips, you're hauling around 3/4 of those heavy, heavy batteries as a contingency.
  - davideous 8y ago
    Yes, that's the effect. But I'd only have to carry the generator portion when needed for a road trip. You could perhaps even rent it only when you need. Even if the generator was in a small trailer, that would provide the range freedom without loosing the storage space (and help with venting/cooling/noise).
    - smileysteve 8y ago
      > Even if the generator was in a small trailer This has been done; but the small trailer also adds significant friction and aerodynamic drag. It also adds complexity in driving and maintenance.
      - bluGill 8y ago
        True, except the road trip case is also the case where you want more cargo capacity than is standard. A rental trailer for one week that lets my wife pack the kitchen sink actually makes sense.
    - pkaye 8y ago
      At that point might as well just rent an gasoline engine car.
- pitaj 8y ago
  I've thought about this, too. It can't be that difficult to do, can it? Maybe it's illegal under current regulatory systems.
  - smileysteve 8y ago
    building a tiny engine that runs efficiently and produces enough meaningful electricity to make up for its weight is difficult. From a regulatory standpoint, yes, fuel systems would be regulated in this design.
    - pitaj 8y ago
      The engine wouldn't need to be especially efficient; it's purpose is to extend range, not to be the main charging apparatus.
- ghaff 8y ago
  Not portable generators--which you'd really want built in for various safety and venting reasons. But you're basically describing a plug-in hybrid. The case against these is that you still carry over at least some of the complexity/maintenance of having an ICE.
- semi-extrinsic 8y ago
  BMW i3 range extender does exactly this.
- driverdan 8y ago
  A small generator puts out less power than the car consumes. It would extend the trip but not solve the problem. As others have said, it's more practical to have a purpose built hybrid.
  - bluGill 8y ago
    You don't need much power to keep a car going on the freeway. If I can extend my drive from 200 miles to 700 miles before I have to stop and recharge - well that is as far as a human can drive in a day anyway (many humans have driven farther - it wasn't safe they were just lucky).
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    It doesn't take much energy to keep a modern car moving at highway speed. With regenerative braking and a limited top speed a small generator should be able to keep the car moving well enough.
cmsonger 8y ago
> It blows my mind that people think recharging their cars on the go can be the future of transportation. It's worth noting that article was written by someone who was driving a Tesla with 215 miles of range and who had clearly not done EV road tripping before. You cannot buy a Tesla model S with 215 miles of range anymore. The shortest model S is 259. The longest 335. And a thing you learn pretty quickly is that charging is super non-linear in its rate. 0->80 is much much much faster than 80->100. I'm not disagreeing that EVs are worse for roadtripping. EVs are worse for road tripping -- but the car used and the choices of the author are exaggerating the issue. www.abetterrouteplanner.com tends to be pretty spot on for "time spent charging" in the routes that it produces. If you want a better measure of the inconvenience, that's a good place to get such a measure.
ljoshua 8y ago
Wasn't Tesla also working on an option where you would drive up to a special dock, and it would extract the battery pack entirely from the bottom of your vehicle and swap in a new, fully-charged one? That seems like a more proper method for long trips and very cool (probably faster than filling up gas!) but I'm not sure if it's a reality yet.
- rip_netrunner 8y ago
  I've heard talk about possible implementation of that in the future from both waymo and tesla, but I don't think there are any plans on the drawing board yet. I think fast-charging is what both of them are more focused on now.
- wil421 8y ago
  I think this style would be much better suited for short haul trucking. If you had trucks going from supplier to distribution center you could just swap out for the return trips. If they weren’t running near round the clock it might not be feasible.
- extrapickles 8y ago
  They stopped development of it because to keep accounting simple you had to return to the swap point to get your original battery back. As a result, not very many people used their proof of concept swapping location.
- smiley1437 8y ago
  Tesla had a working automated battery swap system, but it was a paperwork headache to use so it looks like it was discontinued: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-shuts-down-battery-swap-program-for-superchargers/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-shuts-down-battery-swap-prog...
ajford 8y ago
I really think the path forward for a majority of people is plug-in hybrids. Most people have daily commutes under 50mi round trip. For those people, a car with 50-80mi electric range, then a reduced fuel range is perfect. My spouse drives a Chevy Volt (a sadly now discontinued model), which works well for her 40mi daily commute. Most weeks, the car never fires up the ICE, and we've put probably less than 4 gallons in the last two months. However, we're still able to make long-distance trips with the 7-8 gallon gas tank that gets us around 300 miles with the ~40MPG efficiency of the ICE. That completely eliminates range anxiety, since once the EV range has run out, you still have a perfectly normal car, and can refuel at any station. And with the spare factory EVSE in the trunk, I can generally recharge at my destination when staying overnight.
- rip_netrunner 8y ago
  It's just a lot of extra engineering and cost to have two discrete motors in a car. You're probably going to have a seriously underpowered ICE in it as well since available speeds are reduced which makes it less suitable to highway driving. Not to mention the additional costs on maintaining both of those engines.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    And yet Prius plugin hybrid sales are up almost 50% YoY. Pure EVs are probably the future at some point. But in the here and now, plugin hybrids are the pragmatic choice for a lot of people who mostly drive shorter distances and can charge at home but do longer trips also.
  - maxsilver 8y ago
    > You're probably going to have a seriously underpowered ICE in it as well (snip) which makes it less suitable to highway driving Why? You can put a powerful ICE in it just as easily. My Chevy Volt can easily do 90+mph on the freeway, irregardless of whether it's on battery or gasoline. (Of course, I've never personally verified that...)
  - StrictDabbler 8y ago
    That's why the Volt didn't have an ICE, it had a gas-powered generator to run the electric motors. It's such a smart design that it's a crime they're killing the line.
itsrobreally 8y ago
Nashville, TN has electric buses with a fancy inductive charge port on top, allowing them to be fully charged in 5-10 minutes (they do it on a regular extended stop). An arm descends above the bus until the charging port is in place. I am certain that could be dangerous at car height, but I am also certain some form of this will eventually replace the 220 or 440 line currently in use in most charging stations. I think battery swapping is a good idea, too but it isn't the only solution.
- Latteland 8y ago
  Seattle has had electric buses for years with charging at the park and rides. I don't think it's inductive, it's kind of a giant slot they drive into, above the bus. It just works, but in the end it's no different than being on any other bus.
clouddrover 8y ago
> until battery swap technology is ubiquitous A simpler way forward is to have faster chargers. The Porsche Taycan and (later on) the Audi e-Tron GT are based on an 800-volt architecture which can charge to 80% in 20 minutes from a 350 kW charger: https://electrek.co/2018/07/30/porsche-taycan-all-electric-powertrain-details/ https://electrek.co/2018/07/30/porsche-taycan-all-electric-p... https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2018/11/28/audi-e-tron-gt-concept-bringing-mission-e-to-the-four-ring-brand/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2018/11/28/audi-e... The 350 kW chargers are being built out now: https://electrek.co/2018/12/06/electrify-america-first-350kw-charger-california/ https://electrek.co/2018/12/06/electrify-america-first-350kw... And Porsche is also working on a 450 kW charger for even faster charging: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1120457_porsche-already-has-a-prototype-that-will-charge-faster-than-its-350-kw-taycan https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1120457_porsche-already... Diversity of charging options will also help. The Audi e-Tron GT and Volkswagen's I.D. cars and vans will support wireless inductive charging at 11 kW: https://www.autoblog.com/2018/11/28/audi-e-tron-gt-concept-ev-la-auto-show-177g581a87/ https://www.autoblog.com/2018/11/28/audi-e-tron-gt-concept-e... https://jalopnik.com/the-fascinating-engineering-behind-vws-electric-car-pla-1829257860 https://jalopnik.com/the-fascinating-engineering-behind-vws-... The Volkswagen ID Buzz Cargo van will also have a solar panel on the roof (though it won't give you much additional range): http://newsroom.vw.com/vehicles/volkswagen-i-d-buzz-cargo-the-electric-van-that-could-deliver-the-future/ http://newsroom.vw.com/vehicles/volkswagen-i-d-buzz-cargo-th...
- walshemj 8y ago
  Expensive to install and the beefier the charging supply to more risk of nasty accidents - let alone the effect on the Grid.
modeless 8y ago
> A rechargeable car a significantly more inconvenient product for most consumers Actually, a rechargeable car is significantly more convenient than a gasoline car because you can charge it at home and/or work. You only ever have to wait for charging on long road trips. If you take road trips over 250 miles on a monthly basis, or you can't charge at home or work, then by all means get a gasoline car. But I think that given people's driving patterns, the majority of people would spend less time overall waiting for charging than they would driving to the gas station and filling up. I certainly do.
- X6S1x6Okd1st 8y ago
  I live in Seattle and am currently considering what car to buy next. It will likely be an ICE car because during the summer we regularly will drive 70-100 miles in one direction to a hike. There are not and will not be charging stations at the trailhead. Typically we eat breakfast on the road or before heading out, eat lunch on the hike & get back home for dinner. Stopping for over an hour on the way back would be a big change of pace. This is also true for some of the ski resorts. There are a couple charging stations, but parking is already enough of a disaster at the ski resorts that I'd rather not deal with it. We'll likely follow the crowd and get a ICE Subaru.
  - rjplatte 8y ago
    Get a PHEV. The Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid looks amazing, and the 2019 Prius has AWD. Save yourself some money until electric is ready.
    - uxp100 8y ago
      The PHEV prius doesn't have AWD. It's a higher trim for a normal prius only. And the Crosstrek gets pretty poor mileage for a hybrid after the battery is empty, probably because it has "full" AWD. The Prius has a more limited form of AWD, though it is likely enough for most AWD vehicle buyers needs. If you are interested in a PHEV AWD car (I am interested in PHEV, my wife is interested in AWD), other vehicles to check out are the Hyundai Outlander, the Mini E Countryman S, and a few more expensive BMWs and Volvos. Kia might have one? That's pretty much all of them. Crosstrek seems like the best to me, but has definite downsides and is a compliance car not widely available in the US.
eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
Or we just need to move to car subscriptions where you show up and swap the car out and someone else handles charging the car behind the scenes. Could even potentially do it in a similar model to how scooter companies crowd source the charging.

by yholio 8y ago

davideous 8y ago

Does any electric car have an option where you can place a portable gasoline generator in the frunk and then trickle charge the battery while you drive on a road trip (with appropriate venting of exhaust). If not, why not? I've seen very small, quiet gasoline generators. I would think this could solve this problem easily at the expense of a small amount of storage space.

woofyman 8y ago
You’re describing a plug in hybrid or a serial hybrid like the Chevy Volt.
- pitaj 8y ago
  Except the engine isn't always there as taking up extra space and weight.
  - saalweachter 8y ago
    Weight probably isn't a problem - a Chevy Volt weighs a lot less than a Tesla S. You don't even save much by keeping the gas tank mostly empty when you aren't expecting to need it -- the gas weighs ~6 lbs / gallon, so you might save 50 lbs by keeping the tank on 1/4 when you aren't planning to drive past the battery range. Think about it this way: batteries are really heavy, and the Tesla has like 5x more battery capacity than a Volt. Meanwhile, if you're mostly making short trips, you're hauling around 3/4 of those heavy, heavy batteries as a contingency.
- davideous 8y ago
  Yes, that's the effect. But I'd only have to carry the generator portion when needed for a road trip. You could perhaps even rent it only when you need. Even if the generator was in a small trailer, that would provide the range freedom without loosing the storage space (and help with venting/cooling/noise).
  - smileysteve 8y ago
    > Even if the generator was in a small trailer This has been done; but the small trailer also adds significant friction and aerodynamic drag. It also adds complexity in driving and maintenance.
    - bluGill 8y ago
      True, except the road trip case is also the case where you want more cargo capacity than is standard. A rental trailer for one week that lets my wife pack the kitchen sink actually makes sense.
  - pkaye 8y ago
    At that point might as well just rent an gasoline engine car.
pitaj 8y ago
I've thought about this, too. It can't be that difficult to do, can it? Maybe it's illegal under current regulatory systems.
- smileysteve 8y ago
  building a tiny engine that runs efficiently and produces enough meaningful electricity to make up for its weight is difficult. From a regulatory standpoint, yes, fuel systems would be regulated in this design.
  - pitaj 8y ago
    The engine wouldn't need to be especially efficient; it's purpose is to extend range, not to be the main charging apparatus.
ghaff 8y ago
Not portable generators--which you'd really want built in for various safety and venting reasons. But you're basically describing a plug-in hybrid. The case against these is that you still carry over at least some of the complexity/maintenance of having an ICE.
semi-extrinsic 8y ago
BMW i3 range extender does exactly this.
driverdan 8y ago
A small generator puts out less power than the car consumes. It would extend the trip but not solve the problem. As others have said, it's more practical to have a purpose built hybrid.
- bluGill 8y ago
  You don't need much power to keep a car going on the freeway. If I can extend my drive from 200 miles to 700 miles before I have to stop and recharge - well that is as far as a human can drive in a day anyway (many humans have driven farther - it wasn't safe they were just lucky).
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  It doesn't take much energy to keep a modern car moving at highway speed. With regenerative braking and a limited top speed a small generator should be able to keep the car moving well enough.

cmsonger 8y ago

> It blows my mind that people think recharging their cars on the go can be the future of transportation. It's worth noting that article was written by someone who was driving a Tesla with 215 miles of range and who had clearly not done EV road tripping before. You cannot buy a Tesla model S with 215 miles of range anymore. The shortest model S is 259. The longest 335. And a thing you learn pretty quickly is that charging is super non-linear in its rate. 0->80 is much much much faster than 80->100. I'm not disagreeing that EVs are worse for roadtripping. EVs are worse for road tripping -- but the car used and the choices of the author are exaggerating the issue. www.abetterrouteplanner.com tends to be pretty spot on for "time spent charging" in the routes that it produces. If you want a better measure of the inconvenience, that's a good place to get such a measure.

ljoshua 8y ago

Wasn't Tesla also working on an option where you would drive up to a special dock, and it would extract the battery pack entirely from the bottom of your vehicle and swap in a new, fully-charged one? That seems like a more proper method for long trips and very cool (probably faster than filling up gas!) but I'm not sure if it's a reality yet.

rip_netrunner 8y ago
I've heard talk about possible implementation of that in the future from both waymo and tesla, but I don't think there are any plans on the drawing board yet. I think fast-charging is what both of them are more focused on now.
wil421 8y ago
I think this style would be much better suited for short haul trucking. If you had trucks going from supplier to distribution center you could just swap out for the return trips. If they weren’t running near round the clock it might not be feasible.
extrapickles 8y ago
They stopped development of it because to keep accounting simple you had to return to the swap point to get your original battery back. As a result, not very many people used their proof of concept swapping location.
smiley1437 8y ago
Tesla had a working automated battery swap system, but it was a paperwork headache to use so it looks like it was discontinued: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-shuts-down-battery-swap-program-for-superchargers/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-shuts-down-battery-swap-prog...

ajford 8y ago

I really think the path forward for a majority of people is plug-in hybrids. Most people have daily commutes under 50mi round trip. For those people, a car with 50-80mi electric range, then a reduced fuel range is perfect. My spouse drives a Chevy Volt (a sadly now discontinued model), which works well for her 40mi daily commute. Most weeks, the car never fires up the ICE, and we've put probably less than 4 gallons in the last two months. However, we're still able to make long-distance trips with the 7-8 gallon gas tank that gets us around 300 miles with the ~40MPG efficiency of the ICE. That completely eliminates range anxiety, since once the EV range has run out, you still have a perfectly normal car, and can refuel at any station. And with the spare factory EVSE in the trunk, I can generally recharge at my destination when staying overnight.

rip_netrunner 8y ago
It's just a lot of extra engineering and cost to have two discrete motors in a car. You're probably going to have a seriously underpowered ICE in it as well since available speeds are reduced which makes it less suitable to highway driving. Not to mention the additional costs on maintaining both of those engines.
- ghaff 8y ago
  And yet Prius plugin hybrid sales are up almost 50% YoY. Pure EVs are probably the future at some point. But in the here and now, plugin hybrids are the pragmatic choice for a lot of people who mostly drive shorter distances and can charge at home but do longer trips also.
- maxsilver 8y ago
  > You're probably going to have a seriously underpowered ICE in it as well (snip) which makes it less suitable to highway driving Why? You can put a powerful ICE in it just as easily. My Chevy Volt can easily do 90+mph on the freeway, irregardless of whether it's on battery or gasoline. (Of course, I've never personally verified that...)
- StrictDabbler 8y ago
  That's why the Volt didn't have an ICE, it had a gas-powered generator to run the electric motors. It's such a smart design that it's a crime they're killing the line.

itsrobreally 8y ago

Nashville, TN has electric buses with a fancy inductive charge port on top, allowing them to be fully charged in 5-10 minutes (they do it on a regular extended stop). An arm descends above the bus until the charging port is in place. I am certain that could be dangerous at car height, but I am also certain some form of this will eventually replace the 220 or 440 line currently in use in most charging stations. I think battery swapping is a good idea, too but it isn't the only solution.

Latteland 8y ago
Seattle has had electric buses for years with charging at the park and rides. I don't think it's inductive, it's kind of a giant slot they drive into, above the bus. It just works, but in the end it's no different than being on any other bus.

clouddrover 8y ago

> until battery swap technology is ubiquitous A simpler way forward is to have faster chargers. The Porsche Taycan and (later on) the Audi e-Tron GT are based on an 800-volt architecture which can charge to 80% in 20 minutes from a 350 kW charger: https://electrek.co/2018/07/30/porsche-taycan-all-electric-powertrain-details/ https://electrek.co/2018/07/30/porsche-taycan-all-electric-p... https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2018/11/28/audi-e-tron-gt-concept-bringing-mission-e-to-the-four-ring-brand/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2018/11/28/audi-e... The 350 kW chargers are being built out now: https://electrek.co/2018/12/06/electrify-america-first-350kw-charger-california/ https://electrek.co/2018/12/06/electrify-america-first-350kw... And Porsche is also working on a 450 kW charger for even faster charging: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1120457_porsche-already-has-a-prototype-that-will-charge-faster-than-its-350-kw-taycan https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1120457_porsche-already... Diversity of charging options will also help. The Audi e-Tron GT and Volkswagen's I.D. cars and vans will support wireless inductive charging at 11 kW: https://www.autoblog.com/2018/11/28/audi-e-tron-gt-concept-ev-la-auto-show-177g581a87/ https://www.autoblog.com/2018/11/28/audi-e-tron-gt-concept-e... https://jalopnik.com/the-fascinating-engineering-behind-vws-electric-car-pla-1829257860 https://jalopnik.com/the-fascinating-engineering-behind-vws-... The Volkswagen ID Buzz Cargo van will also have a solar panel on the roof (though it won't give you much additional range): http://newsroom.vw.com/vehicles/volkswagen-i-d-buzz-cargo-the-electric-van-that-could-deliver-the-future/ http://newsroom.vw.com/vehicles/volkswagen-i-d-buzz-cargo-th...

walshemj 8y ago
Expensive to install and the beefier the charging supply to more risk of nasty accidents - let alone the effect on the Grid.

modeless 8y ago

> A rechargeable car a significantly more inconvenient product for most consumers Actually, a rechargeable car is significantly more convenient than a gasoline car because you can charge it at home and/or work. You only ever have to wait for charging on long road trips. If you take road trips over 250 miles on a monthly basis, or you can't charge at home or work, then by all means get a gasoline car. But I think that given people's driving patterns, the majority of people would spend less time overall waiting for charging than they would driving to the gas station and filling up. I certainly do.

X6S1x6Okd1st 8y ago
I live in Seattle and am currently considering what car to buy next. It will likely be an ICE car because during the summer we regularly will drive 70-100 miles in one direction to a hike. There are not and will not be charging stations at the trailhead. Typically we eat breakfast on the road or before heading out, eat lunch on the hike & get back home for dinner. Stopping for over an hour on the way back would be a big change of pace. This is also true for some of the ski resorts. There are a couple charging stations, but parking is already enough of a disaster at the ski resorts that I'd rather not deal with it. We'll likely follow the crowd and get a ICE Subaru.
- rjplatte 8y ago
  Get a PHEV. The Subaru Crosstrek Hybrid looks amazing, and the 2019 Prius has AWD. Save yourself some money until electric is ready.
  - uxp100 8y ago
    The PHEV prius doesn't have AWD. It's a higher trim for a normal prius only. And the Crosstrek gets pretty poor mileage for a hybrid after the battery is empty, probably because it has "full" AWD. The Prius has a more limited form of AWD, though it is likely enough for most AWD vehicle buyers needs. If you are interested in a PHEV AWD car (I am interested in PHEV, my wife is interested in AWD), other vehicles to check out are the Hyundai Outlander, the Mini E Countryman S, and a few more expensive BMWs and Volvos. Kia might have one? That's pretty much all of them. Crosstrek seems like the best to me, but has definite downsides and is a compliance car not widely available in the US.

eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago

Or we just need to move to car subscriptions where you show up and swap the car out and someone else handles charging the car behind the scenes. Could even potentially do it in a similar model to how scooter companies crowd source the charging.