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It's not just FB, my Samsung S9 came preloaded with 'undeletable' Microsoft apps too. But this is nothing new, Samsung phones have came preloaded with bloat sin

by LeonM 8y ago

It's not just FB, my Samsung S9 came preloaded with 'undeletable' Microsoft apps too. But this is nothing new, Samsung phones have came preloaded with bloat since forever. When buying a new phone I always spend some time deleting all Samsung, Microsoft, Facebook and carrier related apps. Yes, you can delete 'undeletable' apps through ADB, without rooting the device. pm uninstall -k --user 0 <name of package>

AlexandrB 8y ago
> It's not just FB, my Samsung S9 came preloaded with 'undeletable' Microsoft apps too. But this is nothing new, Samsung phones have came preloaded with bloat since forever. I'm old enough to remember when this was standard. Before smartphones almost all cellphones were bought through carriers and came pre-loaded with a bunch of carrier crapware (often unremovable). One of the best things about the first iPhone was that Apple retained control of the pre-installed apps and AT&T was not allowed to put a bunch of their own garbage on it. 12 years later the lack of crapware remains a key differentiator for iPhones. But what's most surprising is that in an industry where everyone seems keen to copy even Apple's worst ideas (no headphone jack, notches) only a few are copying some of their best.
- mariusmg 8y ago
  Windows Phones didn't had crap on them either. This is strictly a Android issue.
  - ajmurmann 8y ago
    At least the Nexus phones I've had also never came with crap ware. This is yet another reason why I would only ever by a Android phone from Google. Of course the main reason are the longer update cycles that might even delay arrival of security updates. I really wish Google had gone the exact same route as Apple and only shipped Android phones themselves. To me the collaboration with random manufacturers also weakened the Nexus brand. I have zero brand loyalty to Samsung, LG or HTC. I wanted a Google phone. My iPhone doesn't say "Foxconn" on it, so why did my Nexus say "LG" and the next one "Samsung"?! I'm always surprised that these concerns apparently aren't shared by the market and people are happily buying Samsung phones with crap on it and unnecessary changes to Android that just result in getting updates super late.
    - howard941 8y ago
      In that Google is a marketing entity perhaps it's simply exercising one of the circa 2002 Spolsky doctrines linked to yesterday (https://www.gwern.net/Complement https://www.gwern.net/Complement)? As far as Goggle's concerned the Androids are commodities that exist to run marketing-related software. FWIW I share your desires and wishes.
    - petepete 8y ago
      Android One phones are like this. My Nokia 8 Sirocco came with only one non-stock app (Nokia Support).
    - llampx 8y ago
      OEMs have always made better phones than Google themselves by improving and enhancing Android. Many improvements to Android came from Samsung, HTC and Motorola - the OEMs. Post 5.0, Google has only ever made improvements to Android to benefit its own hardware and ecosystem. For example, the Galaxy Nexus had no MicroSD slot even though the Galaxy phone it was based on did. Even now, Samsung is offering a phone with a headphone jack whereas Google has made their last two phones without, in a completely anti-consumer move. Today's "Samsung crap" is tomorrow's "Brand-new Android feature that you need to enable Google tracking to use"
  - tssva 8y ago
    Many Android phones don't have "crap" installed on them. This is a phone manufacturer issue and not an Android phone.
    - drb91 8y ago
      Well those phones aren’t running ios or windows....
    - untog 8y ago
      It's both. Why does Android have undeletable apps anyway?
      - vetinari 8y ago
        > Why does Android have undeletable apps anyway? It was explained only zillion times, but I will try one more: In android, you have storage in two partitions: /system and /data. /system is read-only, this is where anything that is shipped with phone is stored. Outside of system updates, it is not being touched. /data is, where user data, installed applications, configuration, etc. is stored. To factory reset the phone, you just wipe the /data. No separate partition for factory reset is necessary, because /system due to its immutability doubles as one. Anything you configure/change/etc is stored on /data. If you disable any bundled app, whether through gui or adb, the info that you disabled it is written into /data. Once you want to sell your phone on craiglist, you wipe /data and the buyer gets exactly the same software you originally got. There is also secondary use of the immutability: android system is distributed as partition image, not as a file archive. That means, that the physical fs layout is same for all devices of the same SKU, can be signed (dm-verity), and then verified at boot, whether the filesystem was modified or not. This is being used for ensuring secure boot, and unsealing secrets in trusted environment.
        untog 8y ago
        What you're saying is that Android has undeletable apps because Android was created in such a way that it allows undeletable apps. Which is circular logic. And the issue here is pretty clearly that users have to resort to adb to disable these apps. Why does Android force this? There is no reason, it could easily be built into the Android GUI.
  - czechdeveloper 8y ago
    Windows 10 comes with crap even in Pro version these days (Candy Crush etc.), so it was just because nobody cared enough to create that crap for Windows Phone.
    - wlesieutre 8y ago
      I'm sure there was plenty of crap available. Didn't MS pay developers cash for any garbage they shoveled in just to get the "We have XXXX aps available" count up? The real "problem" was nobody wanted to pay Microsoft for the privilege of having their crap preinstalled.
    - int_19h 8y ago
      These aren't preinstalled though. It places a tile in the default setup for it, and the app gets installed if you click on it. If you delete the tile instead, the app is never even installed.
  - ofcrpls 8y ago
    Before the program cancellation,there were talks on making this happen. They didn't do it, but considering it was preload apps or cancellation, that just goees to show how desperate of a move preloadsare in general. Source : I was part of a team whose app was getting primed up for a preload on WP8.
  - culot 8y ago
    AT&T variants usually came with crapware. You could uninstall most/all of it though. AT&T Android phones are of course far worse though.
  - rchaud 8y ago
    Windows Phone didn't survive in the market long enough to start adding crapware. With their < 1% market share (not exaggerating), it's not like app makers were knocking down MS' doors to include their apps on WP devices.
- simulate 8y ago
  Like the iPhones, phones distributed by Google, starting with the Google Phone G1 in 2008, and continuing to the Nexus phones and today's current Pixel phones (Pixel 1, 2, and 3), have never had crapware.
  - 52-6F-62 8y ago
    I have (outside of my personal iPhone) an LG ThinQ 7 through work and I don't recall it coming loaded with a bunch of crapware, either. There were your standard apps plus "LG Switch" which is for file transfers and "LG Health" which is pretty self-explanatory. Beyond that there was NextRadio as the phone has an FM receiver. Plus the Google Play stuff. Not too bad. Can't say anything about their other phones, though. (Prior to this phone I had a Samsung S6 and that thing was nightmarish with all the bloatware)
  - pacala 8y ago
    Never had crapware other than google ‘s own spyware.
  - bitbiter 8y ago
    The Nexus One had preinstalled apps that could not be removed, specifically Amazon MP3, Twitter, and Facebook.
  - retzkek 8y ago
    I believe this is also true of the many phones branded "Android One" https://www.android.com/one/ https://www.android.com/one/
    - lawl 8y ago
      That's what I thought too. Bought a Nokia/HMD android one phone, not through my carrier. After I put my SIM in and booted the phone it started downloading crapware my provider offers... Luckily downloaded regularly through the play-store, so I could just immediately delete it afterwards. But it still seems there's deals going on there even if you don't buy the phone from your carrier and it's android one.
    - deleted 8y ago
- partiallypro 8y ago
  Android itself has undeletable Google apps.
  - simulate 8y ago
    All phones have undeletable apps provided by their manufacturers. For example, on iPhones you cannot delete Messages, Phone, Safari, Clock, Photos, Health, App Store, and Camera in a conventional way.
    - reaperducer 8y ago
      Phone Not much of a phone without a phone app. But Apple does sell an iPhone without a Phone app. It's called an iPod.
      - Rebelgecko 8y ago
        Does iOS not support 3rd party dialer and SMS apps?
        ryandrake 8y ago
        It does not. Just things like Skype, WhatsApp, etc.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
  - petre 8y ago
    You can install LineageOS if your phone supports it. No Google Apps unless you install them. Also no crap.
  - vetinari 8y ago
    They are easily disable-able.
    - tatami 8y ago
- reshie 8y ago
  for the longest time ios would have facebook\twitter in settings even if you uninstall it(still residual but mostly deleted and took miniscule space) but at least you could get rid of it within a few taps.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    > for the longest time ios would have facebook\twitter in settings even if you uninstall it Clarification: this was not the apps; these were system hooks for sharing content through these services.
- aaaaaaaaaab 8y ago
  Laptops with preinstalled Windows also have a tremendous amount of crapware from various vendors. Trial versions of antivirus software, system "optimizing" apps, sometimes outright spyware too. Thankfully Mac users don't have to put up with this kind of consumer-hostile bullshit.
  - vetinari 8y ago
    Macs have all consumer Apple apps preloaded, and the user cannot delete them without reinstalling macOS from scratch. Imagine a poor user, getting Apple computer with 128GB SSD, where 10GB or more is being taken by GarageBand or iMovie, which he isn't going to touch during the machine lifetime.
    - nildos 8y ago
      You can delete the big apps tho. The biggest mandatory app is iTunes and it's only 213Mb. Kind of bugs me that I can't delete 8Mbs of Chess anyway.
      - vetinari 8y ago
        I just tried it in 10.14... and you are right! It wasn't possible in 10.12/10.13.
        Toutou 8y ago
        Definitely possible at least since 10.10 (Yosemite). Not sure how SIP affects this, as I have it disabled.
        vetinari 8y ago
        In Yosemite or without SIP it would be possible with plain sudo. In El-Capitan it definitely wasn't that easy (I do have SIP enabled).
  - asveikau 8y ago
- clairity 8y ago
  > “But what's most surprising is that in an industry where everyone seems keen to copy even Apple's worst ideas (no headphone jack, notches) only a few are copying some of their best.” this is not surprising at all when you consider the ability to add crapware was a key differentiator for carriers of android relative to ios. ios threatened to disintermediate carriers out of phones, reducing the carriers’ value in the value chain. as iphones became popular, carriers glommed onto android to combat that threat. they continue to do so to keep apple at bay and maintain control over the phone.
amelius 8y ago
I wouldn't worry too much about Microsoft apps. Android itself and its integration with the Google ecosystem can also be considered malware or spyware ...
- rapnie 8y ago
  Ah yes, see my other comment about Foursquare ads in Samsung Gallery app (was not able to have Exodus Privacy analyze it).
propogandist 8y ago
While I didn't have microsoft apps on my S9, if you install netguard (firewall) [1] you'll see that most samsung apps are constantly trying to get a connection with facebook servers and Samsung HQ. Apps that have no reason to have internet connectivity, like the dialer, clock app, the finder (search functionality within the stock launcher) are phoning home [!] Unfortunately Samsung phones have locked bootloaders, so there's no easy way to 'take control'. [1] https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard side note: I recommend installing this on all [un-rooted] android devices. It's an easy way to block most "telemetry" apps & devices collect, from the Amazon Firestick to apps running on any given device, including Google apps.
- crashedsnow 8y ago
  I'm often surprised by the number of totally valid reasons apps need to connect to the interwebs where you'd think they have no business. Clocks need to sync with time servers, dialers want to get updated lists of spam callers.. not sure what "finder" is but seems plausible that a search operation would need an index to search and even more reasonable that it be server-side. Not to mention reporting telemetry, analytics, errors etc so devs can improve the product. Not saying everyone's a good actor, but just connecting to a server doesn't make them a bad one.
  - propogandist 8y ago
    I would understand if the clock was connecting to a dedicated service to sync the time, but the clock app is just an interface where I can set alarms, use stopwatch etc. The system time is managed (and synced) at the Android OS level and so there is no need for apps to connect to the internet, nor for it to have updates. For the finder app, the index should be local. There is no way I want my apps, documents and file metadata to be sent to some samsung server to be indexed so that I can do a local search -- that would provide no value and it's also features that I've never asked for as a user. The calls from most of these apps (especially samsung apps) to facebook servers also serve no purpose other than to try and datamine. I understand there may be cases where telemetry is valuable, but it's unacceptable to have apps (in many cases that haven't been opened) to try and connect to a remote server behind the scenes, especially when you cannot remove them easily.
mattigames 8y ago
Happens everywhere, you can't uninstall "Xbox" nor "Xbox gaming overlay" from a Windows 10 machine, Microsoft old habits never truly die I guess.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  I spend a lot less time (zero time most likely) in Apple’s products dealing with malware, except for that time they added that music album for some stupid reason.
sergiosgc 8y ago
I know I can clean up crapware, via adb, but on principle vote with my wallet. It's not acceptable to charge me something that rounds to a thousand euros and then fleece me for a few extra bucks. Right now, I restrict my selection to Android One [1] phones. The current one is a Nokia 8 Sirocco. [1] https://www.android.com/one/ https://www.android.com/one/
- tssva 8y ago
  I bought Nokia 6.1s for my parents. Only $225 for a phone with great build quality, more than acceptable performance, quick security updates and a pure Android experience. The 32GB of storage is plenty for them. The biggest drawback is probably the camera which although not horrible is a few years behind recent flagship phones. Not everyone cares about having the latest greatest camera on their phone. The camera is perfectly fine for my Mom to send me a picture of the latest thing she saw at Costco for a great price which she thinks I need to get and that will account for 90% of photos taken with their phones. Mid-range Android phones that are part of the Android One program have really started making it difficult to justify spending the money flagship Android phones are costing these days.
  - vetinari 8y ago
    Similarly, I've got Nokia 7.1 for my father last Christmas. It was 330 EUR (including VAT), Android One, with Pie already available. The camera is perfectly fine for him. Once my phone will start acting up, it will be difficult to justify the expense for a flagship, when midranges are as good as they are.
- tyfon 8y ago
  I'm intrigued. I'm not in the market for a new phone right now as the one I have does not mess too much with android either. But for the first time in 15 years I think I might consider a Nokia next time I go shopping...
  - Double_a_92 8y ago
    I also would have gone with Nokia because of their clean software and build quality... But they are doing weird strategies with the European market. E.g. it's almost impossible to get the 64GB version, or if you can it has a massive price increase. Or some good models just don't get released here, like the 6.1 Plus.
darkwinx 8y ago
I didn't know this. Thank you for the tip. I always wanted to do this.
tyfon 8y ago
Isn't this just the same as disabling them from the apps interface or does it physically remove it from the system partition? There is however one I can't disable in my sony phone (what's new) and even if I've managed to completely silence it I'd like to try with this method. Maybe it can do it even if the UI doesn't want to :)
- ptha 8y ago
  From some googling it doesn't appear that you are actually physically removing the app, from xda-developers: these uninstalled system applications can/will come back after a factory reset. This is a good thing, however, as it means that these applications truly aren’t being uninstalled from the device, they are just being uninstalled for the current user (user 0 is the default/main user of the phone). That’s why, if you omit the “–user 0” and “-k” part of the command, the command won’t work. These two commands respectively specify that the system app will only be uninstalled for the current user (and not all users, which is something that requires root access) and that the cache/data of the system application will be preserved (which can’t be removed without root access). Therefore, even if you “uninstall” a system application using this method, you can still receive official OTA updates from your carrier or OEM. [0] [0] https://www.xda-developers.com/uninstall-carrier-oem-bloatware-without-root-access/ https://www.xda-developers.com/uninstall-carrier-oem-bloatwa...
blauditore 8y ago
Oh, I just spent a lot of time trying to root a phone just to get rid of Wiko's constantly nagging "helper" tool and failed. I'll now try this for sure!
bilbo0s 8y ago
>It's not just FB, my Samsung S9 came preloaded with 'undeletable' Microsoft apps too... Alas, it's true. The crapware bloat has infested the entire industry. Sometimes I just don't understand? Don't some of these Samsung phones cost hundreds of dollars? Why annoy people who've already paid you with the crapware? From software companies like Google and facebook, to hardware behemoths like Samsung, the entire industry has become addicted to this stuff.
- rapnie 8y ago
  It is not just crapware, but adware too. When GDPR kicked in, I suddenly got a Foursquare consent dialog popping out of my standard Samsung Gallery app. I still use that crap, unfortunately, but am looking for replacement for both mobile OS and smartphone (probably Fairphone with /e/ or LineageOS).
- expertentipp 8y ago
  If there is potential for a B2B deal for installing crapware in your device, it will be completed. The retail price of the device will increase as long it will not cause significant sales drop on significant markets. Free market, or rather - a corporate oligopoly.
- feenix566 8y ago
  Most people don't care. The money Samsung is getting from Facebook to pre-install the app is worth more to them than the goodwill they're losing from the minority of users who do care.
- Retra 8y ago
  >why annoy people who've already paid you with the crapware? Why make money once when you can make it twice? Where's the incentive for businesses to give you what you want, when you can instead just take what they offer?
  - AlexandrB 8y ago
    > Where's the incentive for businesses to give you what you want, when you can instead just take what they offer? This is a symptom of short-term thinking in corporate leadership. Apple didn't become such a valuable brand by filling their products with third-party shit in exchange for a few bucks.
azeirah 8y ago
My note 9 got preinstalled with Word, Excel, PowerPoint, OneDrive and LinkedIn. Is that what you call crapware? I mean, I don't use LinkedIn nor OneDrive, and I only occasionally use the others, but these are high-quality pieces of software, you can completely disable these apps natively as well, they're not removed, but they don't impact the system in any way aside from taking up a small chunk of your memory.
- code_duck 8y ago
  I would use none of those. How about having the option to install them or not, like normal software?
- paulie_a 8y ago
  If it isnt pure Android, and ships with apps you can't uninstall through normal means, it is crapware. They shouldn't be installed in the first place. And LinkedIn isn't crapware, it's shitware
  - zeusk 8y ago
    Google+ and ancillary Google spyware must be installed by default for playstore compatibility test suite to pass. Is that pure android? Bloat? Crapware? Or just plain shit?
    - tssva 8y ago
      Apple also ships with a bunch of their apps that I would classify as crapware but unlike on Android I can't replace them as defaults with 3rf party apps of my choosing.
      - saagarjha 8y ago
        These also happen to coincide with the apps that you can't delete from your device. Apple refuses to give third-party developers access to sensitive APIs, such as those relating to the Phone app or SMS, due to the potential for abuse.
mxuribe 8y ago
I never dove too deep into trying to uninstall undesirable apps from my android phones because I thought rooting a phone was necessary. But now seeing this, am curious to try it on a few old phones that i use as podcast/mp3 playing devices while mowing the lawn, etc. Thanks for sharing this!
- Double_a_92 8y ago
  If they are old phones anyway, you might aswell just root them.
hu3 8y ago
If I uninstall via adb, does it usually reinstall when updating apps? Thanks for the tip.
- LeonM 8y ago
  No, at least not through the official Android Play store. I don't know about the other application stores such as Samsung's 'Galaxy Apps' store, which is particularly intrusive. It is known for auto-installing apps even if you didn't ask for it. The best solution would be to delete Galaxy Apps store itself. Unless you use it voluntarily of course, but who does?
nailer 8y ago
I had a friend with an undeletable Pizza Hut bookmark in the Samsung web browser. So much for Samsung making 'Premium' smartphones.
- srtjstjsj 8y ago
  That was Vodaphone selling modified Samsung phones: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6451265 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6451265
  - nailer 8y ago
    Yep, and Samsung allowing Vodafone to do that. Also: I wrote that comment 6 years ago!
- stronglikedan 8y ago
  No, no! You misunderstand! The "Premium" is a descriptor of what you'll pay for all the bloatware.
- HillaryBriss 8y ago
  it's the Yahoo/SBC Global toolbar of mobile
otikik 8y ago
I just make a folder called "poo emoji" and move all undeletable apps there.
sdsk8 8y ago
That work without root?
Zetaphor 8y ago
For anyone who can't/won't use ADB, check out Package Disabler: https://www.packagedisabler.com/ https://www.packagedisabler.com/
chaostheory 8y ago
If you have to insist on getting an Android device, why not just stick with Google? Is it because of the lack of public awareness that this doesn't happen on Google devices? or does it happen as well?
burtonator 8y ago
I'm done with all Samsung products until they get their shit together. - no upgrades - flat out horrible bugs that are never fixed - bloatware that you can't remove - shoving their apps down my throat. Just about to buy a new TV and Samsung is explicitly excluded. Next phone won't be a Samsung either. I'm done.
karmickoala 8y ago
I didn't know that. Thank you! For those of you wondering how to do it (I'm using Windows 10, but it's not that different): 1. Download Android platform tools for your platform: https://developer.android.com/studio/releases/platform-tools?hl=pt https://developer.android.com/studio/releases/platform-tools... 2. Unzip it, open cmd and head to the unpacked folder. 3. Enable developer tools and USB debugging in your Android. 4. List packages avaiable: adb shell pm list packages 5. Delete the unwanted package adb shell pm uninstall --user 0 com.package.name
- plopz 8y ago
  You might need the android usb driver https://developer.samsung.com/galaxy/others/android-usb-driver-for-windows https://developer.samsung.com/galaxy/others/android-usb-driv...
jdmichal 8y ago
Whatever Microsoft stuff was on there was probably added by the carrier. I purchased an unlocked S9 directly from Samsung and it did not have any Microsoft apps.
pjmlp 8y ago
It goes all the way back to 8 and 16 bit pack bundles. The thing is, that back then it was quite easy to just ignore the tapes or floppies that we didn't care about.
jammygit 8y ago
I have an s8 on the table next to me collecting dust over issues like that. If only they would let you unlock the bootloader for a lineage install it would be a good phone.
wetpaws 8y ago
God bless you for this
declnz 8y ago
Great tip, thanks. TIL: adb shell has all sorts of goodies, so I went for the one-liner: pm list packages com.facebook | sed 's/package://' | xargs -n 1 -- pm uninstall -k --user 0 (There's a spurious warning at the end, seems their `xargs -n` likes adding a newline: `ls | xargs -n 1`)

by LeonM 8y ago

AlexandrB 8y ago

> It's not just FB, my Samsung S9 came preloaded with 'undeletable' Microsoft apps too. But this is nothing new, Samsung phones have came preloaded with bloat since forever. I'm old enough to remember when this was standard. Before smartphones almost all cellphones were bought through carriers and came pre-loaded with a bunch of carrier crapware (often unremovable). One of the best things about the first iPhone was that Apple retained control of the pre-installed apps and AT&T was not allowed to put a bunch of their own garbage on it. 12 years later the lack of crapware remains a key differentiator for iPhones. But what's most surprising is that in an industry where everyone seems keen to copy even Apple's worst ideas (no headphone jack, notches) only a few are copying some of their best.

mariusmg 8y ago
Windows Phones didn't had crap on them either. This is strictly a Android issue.
- ajmurmann 8y ago
  At least the Nexus phones I've had also never came with crap ware. This is yet another reason why I would only ever by a Android phone from Google. Of course the main reason are the longer update cycles that might even delay arrival of security updates. I really wish Google had gone the exact same route as Apple and only shipped Android phones themselves. To me the collaboration with random manufacturers also weakened the Nexus brand. I have zero brand loyalty to Samsung, LG or HTC. I wanted a Google phone. My iPhone doesn't say "Foxconn" on it, so why did my Nexus say "LG" and the next one "Samsung"?! I'm always surprised that these concerns apparently aren't shared by the market and people are happily buying Samsung phones with crap on it and unnecessary changes to Android that just result in getting updates super late.
  - howard941 8y ago
    In that Google is a marketing entity perhaps it's simply exercising one of the circa 2002 Spolsky doctrines linked to yesterday (https://www.gwern.net/Complement https://www.gwern.net/Complement)? As far as Goggle's concerned the Androids are commodities that exist to run marketing-related software. FWIW I share your desires and wishes.
  - petepete 8y ago
    Android One phones are like this. My Nokia 8 Sirocco came with only one non-stock app (Nokia Support).
  - llampx 8y ago
    OEMs have always made better phones than Google themselves by improving and enhancing Android. Many improvements to Android came from Samsung, HTC and Motorola - the OEMs. Post 5.0, Google has only ever made improvements to Android to benefit its own hardware and ecosystem. For example, the Galaxy Nexus had no MicroSD slot even though the Galaxy phone it was based on did. Even now, Samsung is offering a phone with a headphone jack whereas Google has made their last two phones without, in a completely anti-consumer move. Today's "Samsung crap" is tomorrow's "Brand-new Android feature that you need to enable Google tracking to use"
- tssva 8y ago
  Many Android phones don't have "crap" installed on them. This is a phone manufacturer issue and not an Android phone.
  - drb91 8y ago
    Well those phones aren’t running ios or windows....
  - untog 8y ago
    It's both. Why does Android have undeletable apps anyway?
    - vetinari 8y ago
      > Why does Android have undeletable apps anyway? It was explained only zillion times, but I will try one more: In android, you have storage in two partitions: /system and /data. /system is read-only, this is where anything that is shipped with phone is stored. Outside of system updates, it is not being touched. /data is, where user data, installed applications, configuration, etc. is stored. To factory reset the phone, you just wipe the /data. No separate partition for factory reset is necessary, because /system due to its immutability doubles as one. Anything you configure/change/etc is stored on /data. If you disable any bundled app, whether through gui or adb, the info that you disabled it is written into /data. Once you want to sell your phone on craiglist, you wipe /data and the buyer gets exactly the same software you originally got. There is also secondary use of the immutability: android system is distributed as partition image, not as a file archive. That means, that the physical fs layout is same for all devices of the same SKU, can be signed (dm-verity), and then verified at boot, whether the filesystem was modified or not. This is being used for ensuring secure boot, and unsealing secrets in trusted environment.
      - untog 8y ago
        What you're saying is that Android has undeletable apps because Android was created in such a way that it allows undeletable apps. Which is circular logic. And the issue here is pretty clearly that users have to resort to adb to disable these apps. Why does Android force this? There is no reason, it could easily be built into the Android GUI.
- czechdeveloper 8y ago
  Windows 10 comes with crap even in Pro version these days (Candy Crush etc.), so it was just because nobody cared enough to create that crap for Windows Phone.
  - wlesieutre 8y ago
    I'm sure there was plenty of crap available. Didn't MS pay developers cash for any garbage they shoveled in just to get the "We have XXXX aps available" count up? The real "problem" was nobody wanted to pay Microsoft for the privilege of having their crap preinstalled.
  - int_19h 8y ago
    These aren't preinstalled though. It places a tile in the default setup for it, and the app gets installed if you click on it. If you delete the tile instead, the app is never even installed.
- ofcrpls 8y ago
  Before the program cancellation,there were talks on making this happen. They didn't do it, but considering it was preload apps or cancellation, that just goees to show how desperate of a move preloadsare in general. Source : I was part of a team whose app was getting primed up for a preload on WP8.
- culot 8y ago
  AT&T variants usually came with crapware. You could uninstall most/all of it though. AT&T Android phones are of course far worse though.
- rchaud 8y ago
  Windows Phone didn't survive in the market long enough to start adding crapware. With their < 1% market share (not exaggerating), it's not like app makers were knocking down MS' doors to include their apps on WP devices.
simulate 8y ago
Like the iPhones, phones distributed by Google, starting with the Google Phone G1 in 2008, and continuing to the Nexus phones and today's current Pixel phones (Pixel 1, 2, and 3), have never had crapware.
- 52-6F-62 8y ago
  I have (outside of my personal iPhone) an LG ThinQ 7 through work and I don't recall it coming loaded with a bunch of crapware, either. There were your standard apps plus "LG Switch" which is for file transfers and "LG Health" which is pretty self-explanatory. Beyond that there was NextRadio as the phone has an FM receiver. Plus the Google Play stuff. Not too bad. Can't say anything about their other phones, though. (Prior to this phone I had a Samsung S6 and that thing was nightmarish with all the bloatware)
- pacala 8y ago
  Never had crapware other than google ‘s own spyware.
- bitbiter 8y ago
  The Nexus One had preinstalled apps that could not be removed, specifically Amazon MP3, Twitter, and Facebook.
- retzkek 8y ago
  I believe this is also true of the many phones branded "Android One" https://www.android.com/one/ https://www.android.com/one/
  - lawl 8y ago
    That's what I thought too. Bought a Nokia/HMD android one phone, not through my carrier. After I put my SIM in and booted the phone it started downloading crapware my provider offers... Luckily downloaded regularly through the play-store, so I could just immediately delete it afterwards. But it still seems there's deals going on there even if you don't buy the phone from your carrier and it's android one.
  - deleted 8y ago
partiallypro 8y ago
Android itself has undeletable Google apps.
- simulate 8y ago
  All phones have undeletable apps provided by their manufacturers. For example, on iPhones you cannot delete Messages, Phone, Safari, Clock, Photos, Health, App Store, and Camera in a conventional way.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    Phone Not much of a phone without a phone app. But Apple does sell an iPhone without a Phone app. It's called an iPod.
    - Rebelgecko 8y ago
      Does iOS not support 3rd party dialer and SMS apps?
      - ryandrake 8y ago
        It does not. Just things like Skype, WhatsApp, etc.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
- petre 8y ago
  You can install LineageOS if your phone supports it. No Google Apps unless you install them. Also no crap.
- vetinari 8y ago
  They are easily disable-able.
  - tatami 8y ago
reshie 8y ago
for the longest time ios would have facebook\twitter in settings even if you uninstall it(still residual but mostly deleted and took miniscule space) but at least you could get rid of it within a few taps.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  > for the longest time ios would have facebook\twitter in settings even if you uninstall it Clarification: this was not the apps; these were system hooks for sharing content through these services.
aaaaaaaaaab 8y ago
Laptops with preinstalled Windows also have a tremendous amount of crapware from various vendors. Trial versions of antivirus software, system "optimizing" apps, sometimes outright spyware too. Thankfully Mac users don't have to put up with this kind of consumer-hostile bullshit.
- vetinari 8y ago
  Macs have all consumer Apple apps preloaded, and the user cannot delete them without reinstalling macOS from scratch. Imagine a poor user, getting Apple computer with 128GB SSD, where 10GB or more is being taken by GarageBand or iMovie, which he isn't going to touch during the machine lifetime.
  - nildos 8y ago
    You can delete the big apps tho. The biggest mandatory app is iTunes and it's only 213Mb. Kind of bugs me that I can't delete 8Mbs of Chess anyway.
    - vetinari 8y ago
      I just tried it in 10.14... and you are right! It wasn't possible in 10.12/10.13.
      - Toutou 8y ago
        Definitely possible at least since 10.10 (Yosemite). Not sure how SIP affects this, as I have it disabled.
        vetinari 8y ago
        In Yosemite or without SIP it would be possible with plain sudo. In El-Capitan it definitely wasn't that easy (I do have SIP enabled).
- asveikau 8y ago
clairity 8y ago
> “But what's most surprising is that in an industry where everyone seems keen to copy even Apple's worst ideas (no headphone jack, notches) only a few are copying some of their best.” this is not surprising at all when you consider the ability to add crapware was a key differentiator for carriers of android relative to ios. ios threatened to disintermediate carriers out of phones, reducing the carriers’ value in the value chain. as iphones became popular, carriers glommed onto android to combat that threat. they continue to do so to keep apple at bay and maintain control over the phone.

amelius 8y ago

I wouldn't worry too much about Microsoft apps. Android itself and its integration with the Google ecosystem can also be considered malware or spyware ...

rapnie 8y ago
Ah yes, see my other comment about Foursquare ads in Samsung Gallery app (was not able to have Exodus Privacy analyze it).

propogandist 8y ago

While I didn't have microsoft apps on my S9, if you install netguard (firewall) [1] you'll see that most samsung apps are constantly trying to get a connection with facebook servers and Samsung HQ. Apps that have no reason to have internet connectivity, like the dialer, clock app, the finder (search functionality within the stock launcher) are phoning home [!] Unfortunately Samsung phones have locked bootloaders, so there's no easy way to 'take control'. [1] https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard side note: I recommend installing this on all [un-rooted] android devices. It's an easy way to block most "telemetry" apps & devices collect, from the Amazon Firestick to apps running on any given device, including Google apps.

crashedsnow 8y ago
I'm often surprised by the number of totally valid reasons apps need to connect to the interwebs where you'd think they have no business. Clocks need to sync with time servers, dialers want to get updated lists of spam callers.. not sure what "finder" is but seems plausible that a search operation would need an index to search and even more reasonable that it be server-side. Not to mention reporting telemetry, analytics, errors etc so devs can improve the product. Not saying everyone's a good actor, but just connecting to a server doesn't make them a bad one.
- propogandist 8y ago
  I would understand if the clock was connecting to a dedicated service to sync the time, but the clock app is just an interface where I can set alarms, use stopwatch etc. The system time is managed (and synced) at the Android OS level and so there is no need for apps to connect to the internet, nor for it to have updates. For the finder app, the index should be local. There is no way I want my apps, documents and file metadata to be sent to some samsung server to be indexed so that I can do a local search -- that would provide no value and it's also features that I've never asked for as a user. The calls from most of these apps (especially samsung apps) to facebook servers also serve no purpose other than to try and datamine. I understand there may be cases where telemetry is valuable, but it's unacceptable to have apps (in many cases that haven't been opened) to try and connect to a remote server behind the scenes, especially when you cannot remove them easily.

mattigames 8y ago

Happens everywhere, you can't uninstall "Xbox" nor "Xbox gaming overlay" from a Windows 10 machine, Microsoft old habits never truly die I guess.

lotsofpulp 8y ago
I spend a lot less time (zero time most likely) in Apple’s products dealing with malware, except for that time they added that music album for some stupid reason.

sergiosgc 8y ago

I know I can clean up crapware, via adb, but on principle vote with my wallet. It's not acceptable to charge me something that rounds to a thousand euros and then fleece me for a few extra bucks. Right now, I restrict my selection to Android One [1] phones. The current one is a Nokia 8 Sirocco. [1] https://www.android.com/one/ https://www.android.com/one/

tssva 8y ago
I bought Nokia 6.1s for my parents. Only $225 for a phone with great build quality, more than acceptable performance, quick security updates and a pure Android experience. The 32GB of storage is plenty for them. The biggest drawback is probably the camera which although not horrible is a few years behind recent flagship phones. Not everyone cares about having the latest greatest camera on their phone. The camera is perfectly fine for my Mom to send me a picture of the latest thing she saw at Costco for a great price which she thinks I need to get and that will account for 90% of photos taken with their phones. Mid-range Android phones that are part of the Android One program have really started making it difficult to justify spending the money flagship Android phones are costing these days.
- vetinari 8y ago
  Similarly, I've got Nokia 7.1 for my father last Christmas. It was 330 EUR (including VAT), Android One, with Pie already available. The camera is perfectly fine for him. Once my phone will start acting up, it will be difficult to justify the expense for a flagship, when midranges are as good as they are.
tyfon 8y ago
I'm intrigued. I'm not in the market for a new phone right now as the one I have does not mess too much with android either. But for the first time in 15 years I think I might consider a Nokia next time I go shopping...
- Double_a_92 8y ago
  I also would have gone with Nokia because of their clean software and build quality... But they are doing weird strategies with the European market. E.g. it's almost impossible to get the 64GB version, or if you can it has a massive price increase. Or some good models just don't get released here, like the 6.1 Plus.

darkwinx 8y ago

I didn't know this. Thank you for the tip. I always wanted to do this.

tyfon 8y ago

Isn't this just the same as disabling them from the apps interface or does it physically remove it from the system partition? There is however one I can't disable in my sony phone (what's new) and even if I've managed to completely silence it I'd like to try with this method. Maybe it can do it even if the UI doesn't want to :)

ptha 8y ago
From some googling it doesn't appear that you are actually physically removing the app, from xda-developers: these uninstalled system applications can/will come back after a factory reset. This is a good thing, however, as it means that these applications truly aren’t being uninstalled from the device, they are just being uninstalled for the current user (user 0 is the default/main user of the phone). That’s why, if you omit the “–user 0” and “-k” part of the command, the command won’t work. These two commands respectively specify that the system app will only be uninstalled for the current user (and not all users, which is something that requires root access) and that the cache/data of the system application will be preserved (which can’t be removed without root access). Therefore, even if you “uninstall” a system application using this method, you can still receive official OTA updates from your carrier or OEM. [0] [0] https://www.xda-developers.com/uninstall-carrier-oem-bloatware-without-root-access/ https://www.xda-developers.com/uninstall-carrier-oem-bloatwa...

blauditore 8y ago

Oh, I just spent a lot of time trying to root a phone just to get rid of Wiko's constantly nagging "helper" tool and failed. I'll now try this for sure!

bilbo0s 8y ago

>It's not just FB, my Samsung S9 came preloaded with 'undeletable' Microsoft apps too... Alas, it's true. The crapware bloat has infested the entire industry. Sometimes I just don't understand? Don't some of these Samsung phones cost hundreds of dollars? Why annoy people who've already paid you with the crapware? From software companies like Google and facebook, to hardware behemoths like Samsung, the entire industry has become addicted to this stuff.

rapnie 8y ago
It is not just crapware, but adware too. When GDPR kicked in, I suddenly got a Foursquare consent dialog popping out of my standard Samsung Gallery app. I still use that crap, unfortunately, but am looking for replacement for both mobile OS and smartphone (probably Fairphone with /e/ or LineageOS).
expertentipp 8y ago
If there is potential for a B2B deal for installing crapware in your device, it will be completed. The retail price of the device will increase as long it will not cause significant sales drop on significant markets. Free market, or rather - a corporate oligopoly.
feenix566 8y ago
Most people don't care. The money Samsung is getting from Facebook to pre-install the app is worth more to them than the goodwill they're losing from the minority of users who do care.
Retra 8y ago
>why annoy people who've already paid you with the crapware? Why make money once when you can make it twice? Where's the incentive for businesses to give you what you want, when you can instead just take what they offer?
- AlexandrB 8y ago
  > Where's the incentive for businesses to give you what you want, when you can instead just take what they offer? This is a symptom of short-term thinking in corporate leadership. Apple didn't become such a valuable brand by filling their products with third-party shit in exchange for a few bucks.

azeirah 8y ago

My note 9 got preinstalled with Word, Excel, PowerPoint, OneDrive and LinkedIn. Is that what you call crapware? I mean, I don't use LinkedIn nor OneDrive, and I only occasionally use the others, but these are high-quality pieces of software, you can completely disable these apps natively as well, they're not removed, but they don't impact the system in any way aside from taking up a small chunk of your memory.

code_duck 8y ago
I would use none of those. How about having the option to install them or not, like normal software?
paulie_a 8y ago
If it isnt pure Android, and ships with apps you can't uninstall through normal means, it is crapware. They shouldn't be installed in the first place. And LinkedIn isn't crapware, it's shitware
- zeusk 8y ago
  Google+ and ancillary Google spyware must be installed by default for playstore compatibility test suite to pass. Is that pure android? Bloat? Crapware? Or just plain shit?
  - tssva 8y ago
    Apple also ships with a bunch of their apps that I would classify as crapware but unlike on Android I can't replace them as defaults with 3rf party apps of my choosing.
    - saagarjha 8y ago
      These also happen to coincide with the apps that you can't delete from your device. Apple refuses to give third-party developers access to sensitive APIs, such as those relating to the Phone app or SMS, due to the potential for abuse.

mxuribe 8y ago

I never dove too deep into trying to uninstall undesirable apps from my android phones because I thought rooting a phone was necessary. But now seeing this, am curious to try it on a few old phones that i use as podcast/mp3 playing devices while mowing the lawn, etc. Thanks for sharing this!

Double_a_92 8y ago
If they are old phones anyway, you might aswell just root them.

hu3 8y ago

If I uninstall via adb, does it usually reinstall when updating apps? Thanks for the tip.

LeonM 8y ago
No, at least not through the official Android Play store. I don't know about the other application stores such as Samsung's 'Galaxy Apps' store, which is particularly intrusive. It is known for auto-installing apps even if you didn't ask for it. The best solution would be to delete Galaxy Apps store itself. Unless you use it voluntarily of course, but who does?

nailer 8y ago

I had a friend with an undeletable Pizza Hut bookmark in the Samsung web browser. So much for Samsung making 'Premium' smartphones.

srtjstjsj 8y ago
That was Vodaphone selling modified Samsung phones: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6451265 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6451265
- nailer 8y ago
  Yep, and Samsung allowing Vodafone to do that. Also: I wrote that comment 6 years ago!
stronglikedan 8y ago
No, no! You misunderstand! The "Premium" is a descriptor of what you'll pay for all the bloatware.
HillaryBriss 8y ago
it's the Yahoo/SBC Global toolbar of mobile

otikik 8y ago

I just make a folder called "poo emoji" and move all undeletable apps there.

sdsk8 8y ago

That work without root?

Zetaphor 8y ago

For anyone who can't/won't use ADB, check out Package Disabler: https://www.packagedisabler.com/ https://www.packagedisabler.com/

chaostheory 8y ago

If you have to insist on getting an Android device, why not just stick with Google? Is it because of the lack of public awareness that this doesn't happen on Google devices? or does it happen as well?

burtonator 8y ago

I'm done with all Samsung products until they get their shit together. - no upgrades - flat out horrible bugs that are never fixed - bloatware that you can't remove - shoving their apps down my throat. Just about to buy a new TV and Samsung is explicitly excluded. Next phone won't be a Samsung either. I'm done.

karmickoala 8y ago

I didn't know that. Thank you! For those of you wondering how to do it (I'm using Windows 10, but it's not that different): 1. Download Android platform tools for your platform: https://developer.android.com/studio/releases/platform-tools?hl=pt https://developer.android.com/studio/releases/platform-tools... 2. Unzip it, open cmd and head to the unpacked folder. 3. Enable developer tools and USB debugging in your Android. 4. List packages avaiable: adb shell pm list packages 5. Delete the unwanted package adb shell pm uninstall --user 0 com.package.name

plopz 8y ago
You might need the android usb driver https://developer.samsung.com/galaxy/others/android-usb-driver-for-windows https://developer.samsung.com/galaxy/others/android-usb-driv...

jdmichal 8y ago

Whatever Microsoft stuff was on there was probably added by the carrier. I purchased an unlocked S9 directly from Samsung and it did not have any Microsoft apps.

pjmlp 8y ago

It goes all the way back to 8 and 16 bit pack bundles. The thing is, that back then it was quite easy to just ignore the tapes or floppies that we didn't care about.

jammygit 8y ago

I have an s8 on the table next to me collecting dust over issues like that. If only they would let you unlock the bootloader for a lineage install it would be a good phone.

wetpaws 8y ago

God bless you for this

declnz 8y ago

Great tip, thanks. TIL: adb shell has all sorts of goodies, so I went for the one-liner: pm list packages com.facebook | sed 's/package://' | xargs -n 1 -- pm uninstall -k --user 0 (There's a spurious warning at the end, seems their `xargs -n` likes adding a newline: `ls | xargs -n 1`)