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> They make people nauseous or they give people hangovers, so why do we find them so rewarding? Why do we remember the good things about them and not the bad?

> They make people nauseous or they give people hangovers, so why do we find them so rewarding? Why do we remember the good things about them and not the bad? Is this not generally true? I like to hike, but a lot of times climbing a mountain is absolutely miserable, and I might be sore for some time afterword. Yet I always remember it as a great experience. Or with past relationships, I have to try to remember the bad parts, but the good parts come easily.

aurailious 8y ago
I remember when I climbed Guadalupe peak in west Texas. I got to the gate around 3:50, and 4pm is when they close new permits for camping near the summit. Well I start climbing and because I started to late the sun set before I even reached the camp site. So I set up my tent nearly in the dark as the temperatures were dropping. Well, I knew it was going to be cold, but I lived in Texas at the time and didn't really remember what to do in sub freezing temperatures overnight. Stayed up nearly the entire night shivering. But I'll never forget the sun rise up the flat Texas horizon from the tallest peak in the state. It was so beautiful and peaceful there. Clear skies, everything was perfect. I don't really remember the night before anymore, just that I need to pack some extra layers next time.
koolba 8y ago
Also people tend to remember group shenanigans and drinking leads to more of it than teetotaling.
dilyevsky 8y ago
There’s even more similarity because high altitude appears to be causing permanent brain damage - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16443427 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16443427
- Godel_unicode 8y ago
  I doubt that study is relevant, considering all the mountains in question are close to twice the altitude of Guadalupe.
mrspeaker 8y ago
Even when you think of the worst (physical) pain you've ever experienced... it never seems all bad (even when it was life-threatening!) - I actually remember it kind of fondly?! Is it some sort of Stockholm Syndrome for bad things?
- FigBug 8y ago
  I had my arm 90% severed in an industrial accident, judging by the amount of morphine they had me on, I must have been in a lot of pain. But I can't remember the feeling of the pain at all, but I can remember all the things I was doing to try and reduce the pain. Every injury since (broken leg, broken collar bone, dislocated finger) has seemed like the worst pain I've ever experienced, but I know logically it can't be. And once I recover I forget the pain again.
  - xfitm3 8y ago
    You may have been administered midazolam. This drug causes memory loss and is often used in the treatment of bodily trauma. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2735240/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2735240/
    - mattkrause 8y ago
      Midazolam isn’t a pain killer. It is used for sedation and anesthesia induction but you’d only get that once and it only lasts for a few hours.
- mruts 8y ago
  I dunno man, I used to be addicted to heroin, and the feelings of withdrawel still haunt me. Don’t get me wrong, I had some fun times on the stuff, but whenever I think about it all I remember is the worst and most terrible pain you could ever possibly imagine.
  - xfitm3 8y ago
    Are you in a program that biases your thoughts towards the negative aspects?
ra88it 8y ago
Yes, I think it is quite normal. Alcohol is a cheap, ubiquitous drug that helps us relax today, for a roughly proportionate cost which we can pay tomorrow (plus whatever longer-term costs like liver damage or memory formation which we can ignore or put off for even longer). It's not confusing or unintuitive. Alcohol helps us relax. That's all it does! Which leads to all the other behaviors that are secondary to suddenly finding oneself relaxed. At first, a healthy relationship with alcohol is a perfectly reasonable transaction. I think it is normal that we would have fond memories of being relaxed, even in the midst of the mild hangover that would necessarily follow. We easily get addicted to cheap methods for getting relaxed. Why wouldn't we? Especially if everyone around us is constantly using it to get relaxed. It's disgusting to witness! Unless you also use it to relax, in which case it suddenly becomes tolerable or even amusing. You don't need much to relax (initially). Like with most drugs, eventually it is less potent and you require more. Also, like with any habit, your default baseline (in this case, your default relaxedness) starts to shift, so that eventually you are actively un-relaxed unless alcohol is present in your system. Obviously, as this continues, you need more and more alcohol, which is toxic pretty much in direct proportion to its volume. Edit: added the sentence about hangovers, for clarity
- relaxxxxxxxxxxx 8y ago
  Could you say relax again for me please?
  - matt_j 8y ago
    Don't do it.
    - crushcrashcrush 8y ago
      When you want to go to it?
  - dexwiz 8y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3_2entulkw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3_2entulkw
kyleblarson 8y ago
The term I've heard to describe things like this (marathons, mountaineering, etc) is type 2 fun. Type 1 fun is actually fun while you're doing it, type 2 fun takes a couple of weeks to forget the suffering and to decide that it was in fact fun.
- fingerlocks 8y ago
  The term was popularized by alpinist Kelly Cordes, but goes back decades. Used frequently in ice climbing scene, because climbing a pitch of ice is generally a painful horrendous experience for most. But you’re so elated and adrenaline pumped when you reach the top, you get a “climbers high” that makes you want to keep going. Type 2 fun is a unique experience.
- dzhiurgis 8y ago
  Eat eggs and bacon for breakfast and it's type 1 fun. Have some porridge and you'll feel great entire morning :)
  - snikeris 8y ago
    I regularly eat eggs or porridge (cream of wheat) for breakfast. I feel better on the eggs days. Could be the choline.
- teddyh 8y ago
  Also applicable to gaming: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png
ryanmercer 8y ago
>Is this not generally true? I like to hike, but a lot of times climbing a mountain is absolutely miserable, and I might be sore for some time afterword. I'm a strength athlete. Minor injuries are the norm, serious injuries are a guarantee if you lift long enough. I tore my meniscus a 14 months ago and kept on lifting and I have numerous friends that have delayed surgeries so that they could still compete in specific competitions. It tears us up, it's miserable, but man it's worth every second of discomfort, every little bit of pain.
jm__87 8y ago
I am quite the opposite. I remember bad things quite readily, but have to remind myself repeatedly it wasn't all bad. As for drinking, it was an excuse to act like an idiot and have some fun when I was younger I think. The hangovers did get much worse as I got older, so I rarely drink now and when I do I don't usually enjoy it that much.
fitzroy 8y ago
This reminds me of the book Stumbling on Happiness by Daniel Gilbert. There's a section were he discusses how we misremember how stressful and frustrating family vacations can be, and instead remember them as being more enjoyable due to some expectation that they should be. In On Photography (I believe), Susan Sontag talks about how it has been a quintessentially American thing to ensure everyone was smiling in family snapshots. I wonder if cultures or families that tend to smile in photos end up taking more vacations because they misremember them as being better than they were.
jamesb93 8y ago
It might also be related to the peak-end rule[1]. The most intense feeling of a hike can come in many places, probably at the end if the goal is to get somewhere in particular or to complete a specific goal. Although it might be mostly bad/hard, you remember the end (satisfying) and the peak emotion which is the good feeling. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak–end_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak–end_rule
cblum 8y ago
My experience is of course anecdotal, but that’s not how I feel about alcohol. I got drunk twice in my life. Once intentionally to see what it was like, and once by accident (thought I was having a couple beers, turns out they all had double the usual alcohol content so I was having twice what I thought I was having). Both experiences made me feel so bad that they were sort of traumatizing. I’m not talking about the hangover (though that was awful too). The feeling of being drunk feels terrible to me. I feel like I’m losing control of myself. My face feels numb. People say that’s how it is, and I don’t understand how they can look forward to that.
- mr_overalls 8y ago
  Neurological diversity is a thing. I have no scientific evidence, but based on anecdata from friends, I think people can experience ethanol intoxication in very different ways. One of my friends is a former alcoholic; he says that the sound of an aluminum can popping open feels like a religious moment. The sound is apparently so thoroughly associated with endless drinking and partying from his teenage years, that it triggers a brief rush of euphoria, followed by an immediate craving to drink a beer. He's talked about how the first time he was moderately intoxicated, it was the best feeling he'd ever had, both in an immediately euphoric sense, and in a deeper, comforting sort of way. "I just had this feeling that life was going to be all right," he says. Scary stuff - and so very different from your experience.

aurailious 8y ago

I remember when I climbed Guadalupe peak in west Texas. I got to the gate around 3:50, and 4pm is when they close new permits for camping near the summit. Well I start climbing and because I started to late the sun set before I even reached the camp site. So I set up my tent nearly in the dark as the temperatures were dropping. Well, I knew it was going to be cold, but I lived in Texas at the time and didn't really remember what to do in sub freezing temperatures overnight. Stayed up nearly the entire night shivering. But I'll never forget the sun rise up the flat Texas horizon from the tallest peak in the state. It was so beautiful and peaceful there. Clear skies, everything was perfect. I don't really remember the night before anymore, just that I need to pack some extra layers next time.

koolba 8y ago

Also people tend to remember group shenanigans and drinking leads to more of it than teetotaling.

dilyevsky 8y ago

There’s even more similarity because high altitude appears to be causing permanent brain damage - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16443427 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16443427

Godel_unicode 8y ago
I doubt that study is relevant, considering all the mountains in question are close to twice the altitude of Guadalupe.

mrspeaker 8y ago

Even when you think of the worst (physical) pain you've ever experienced... it never seems all bad (even when it was life-threatening!) - I actually remember it kind of fondly?! Is it some sort of Stockholm Syndrome for bad things?

FigBug 8y ago
I had my arm 90% severed in an industrial accident, judging by the amount of morphine they had me on, I must have been in a lot of pain. But I can't remember the feeling of the pain at all, but I can remember all the things I was doing to try and reduce the pain. Every injury since (broken leg, broken collar bone, dislocated finger) has seemed like the worst pain I've ever experienced, but I know logically it can't be. And once I recover I forget the pain again.
- xfitm3 8y ago
  You may have been administered midazolam. This drug causes memory loss and is often used in the treatment of bodily trauma. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2735240/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2735240/
  - mattkrause 8y ago
    Midazolam isn’t a pain killer. It is used for sedation and anesthesia induction but you’d only get that once and it only lasts for a few hours.
mruts 8y ago
I dunno man, I used to be addicted to heroin, and the feelings of withdrawel still haunt me. Don’t get me wrong, I had some fun times on the stuff, but whenever I think about it all I remember is the worst and most terrible pain you could ever possibly imagine.
- xfitm3 8y ago
  Are you in a program that biases your thoughts towards the negative aspects?

ra88it 8y ago

Yes, I think it is quite normal. Alcohol is a cheap, ubiquitous drug that helps us relax today, for a roughly proportionate cost which we can pay tomorrow (plus whatever longer-term costs like liver damage or memory formation which we can ignore or put off for even longer). It's not confusing or unintuitive. Alcohol helps us relax. That's all it does! Which leads to all the other behaviors that are secondary to suddenly finding oneself relaxed. At first, a healthy relationship with alcohol is a perfectly reasonable transaction. I think it is normal that we would have fond memories of being relaxed, even in the midst of the mild hangover that would necessarily follow. We easily get addicted to cheap methods for getting relaxed. Why wouldn't we? Especially if everyone around us is constantly using it to get relaxed. It's disgusting to witness! Unless you also use it to relax, in which case it suddenly becomes tolerable or even amusing. You don't need much to relax (initially). Like with most drugs, eventually it is less potent and you require more. Also, like with any habit, your default baseline (in this case, your default relaxedness) starts to shift, so that eventually you are actively un-relaxed unless alcohol is present in your system. Obviously, as this continues, you need more and more alcohol, which is toxic pretty much in direct proportion to its volume. Edit: added the sentence about hangovers, for clarity

relaxxxxxxxxxxx 8y ago
Could you say relax again for me please?
- matt_j 8y ago
  Don't do it.
  - crushcrashcrush 8y ago
    When you want to go to it?
- dexwiz 8y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3_2entulkw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3_2entulkw

kyleblarson 8y ago

The term I've heard to describe things like this (marathons, mountaineering, etc) is type 2 fun. Type 1 fun is actually fun while you're doing it, type 2 fun takes a couple of weeks to forget the suffering and to decide that it was in fact fun.

fingerlocks 8y ago
The term was popularized by alpinist Kelly Cordes, but goes back decades. Used frequently in ice climbing scene, because climbing a pitch of ice is generally a painful horrendous experience for most. But you’re so elated and adrenaline pumped when you reach the top, you get a “climbers high” that makes you want to keep going. Type 2 fun is a unique experience.
dzhiurgis 8y ago
Eat eggs and bacon for breakfast and it's type 1 fun. Have some porridge and you'll feel great entire morning :)
- snikeris 8y ago
  I regularly eat eggs or porridge (cream of wheat) for breakfast. I feel better on the eggs days. Could be the choline.
teddyh 8y ago
Also applicable to gaming: http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png http://dwarffortresswiki.org/images/4/40/FunComic.png

ryanmercer 8y ago

>Is this not generally true? I like to hike, but a lot of times climbing a mountain is absolutely miserable, and I might be sore for some time afterword. I'm a strength athlete. Minor injuries are the norm, serious injuries are a guarantee if you lift long enough. I tore my meniscus a 14 months ago and kept on lifting and I have numerous friends that have delayed surgeries so that they could still compete in specific competitions. It tears us up, it's miserable, but man it's worth every second of discomfort, every little bit of pain.

jm__87 8y ago

I am quite the opposite. I remember bad things quite readily, but have to remind myself repeatedly it wasn't all bad. As for drinking, it was an excuse to act like an idiot and have some fun when I was younger I think. The hangovers did get much worse as I got older, so I rarely drink now and when I do I don't usually enjoy it that much.

fitzroy 8y ago

This reminds me of the book Stumbling on Happiness by Daniel Gilbert. There's a section were he discusses how we misremember how stressful and frustrating family vacations can be, and instead remember them as being more enjoyable due to some expectation that they should be. In On Photography (I believe), Susan Sontag talks about how it has been a quintessentially American thing to ensure everyone was smiling in family snapshots. I wonder if cultures or families that tend to smile in photos end up taking more vacations because they misremember them as being better than they were.

jamesb93 8y ago

It might also be related to the peak-end rule[1]. The most intense feeling of a hike can come in many places, probably at the end if the goal is to get somewhere in particular or to complete a specific goal. Although it might be mostly bad/hard, you remember the end (satisfying) and the peak emotion which is the good feeling. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak–end_rule https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak–end_rule

cblum 8y ago

My experience is of course anecdotal, but that’s not how I feel about alcohol. I got drunk twice in my life. Once intentionally to see what it was like, and once by accident (thought I was having a couple beers, turns out they all had double the usual alcohol content so I was having twice what I thought I was having). Both experiences made me feel so bad that they were sort of traumatizing. I’m not talking about the hangover (though that was awful too). The feeling of being drunk feels terrible to me. I feel like I’m losing control of myself. My face feels numb. People say that’s how it is, and I don’t understand how they can look forward to that.

mr_overalls 8y ago
Neurological diversity is a thing. I have no scientific evidence, but based on anecdata from friends, I think people can experience ethanol intoxication in very different ways. One of my friends is a former alcoholic; he says that the sound of an aluminum can popping open feels like a religious moment. The sound is apparently so thoroughly associated with endless drinking and partying from his teenage years, that it triggers a brief rush of euphoria, followed by an immediate craving to drink a beer. He's talked about how the first time he was moderately intoxicated, it was the best feeling he'd ever had, both in an immediately euphoric sense, and in a deeper, comforting sort of way. "I just had this feeling that life was going to be all right," he says. Scary stuff - and so very different from your experience.