17 ms·
Just a few drinks can change how memories are formed
- dkarl 8y agoAll drugs of abuse — alcohol, opiates, cocaine, methamphetamine — have adverse side effects. They make people nauseous or they give people hangovers, so why do we find them so rewarding? Why do we remember the good things about them and not the bad? This seems like a weird question, at least in relation to alcohol. The pleasurable experience of alcohol is not only remembered but enthusiastically attested to by people currently under the influence. People have no problem remembering hangovers and talk about them frequently, and the other negative health effects are separated in time from the consumption experience, which weakens the association. I suspect this person has an unusual personal reaction to alcohol, but if it leads him to original discoveries, more power to him.
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- cblum 8y agoI probably have an “unusual reaction” to alcohol, since I don’t find it great. I’ve only gotten drunk twice in my life and it felt horrible, even kind of traumatizing. Not just the hangover, even the feeling of being drunk is very unpleasant to me.
- ordu 8y agoSadly enough, that all this science explores averages. I cannot drink alcohol because I remember "side effects" much more clearly than "direct" ones. I used to have fun from drinks, but with age I did it less frequently and for the last 10 years I didn't drink at all. Why? Is there is some psychological cause or some biochemistry mechanisms works at higher/lower intensity than in average fly? I cannot even make a guess reading such articles.
- stochastic_monk 8y agoMaybe younger people are performing something like reinforcement learning with higher emphasis on exploration than exploitation relative to older individuals.
- gregw134 8y agoWell put.
- aliteralrobot 8y agoI was going say something to this effect as well, for the other harder drugs I’ve tried. I do remember having fun while on them, but I also vividly remember the “come down”, and don’t really crave them at all because of that. I wonder if this (psychological?) trait is more common amongst people who are unlikely to become addicted to drugs.
- rconti 8y agoI, too, hate the "come down" more than I desire the reward, which makes me averse to many of those things, as well as gambling. I have a hard time following sports teams too closely because I hate to "lose" more than I like to "win". That said, I don't have the same reaction to alcohol; the cravings when I regularly partake are stronger than the desire not to. I'm sure there's a whole spectrum of folks from averse to addiction, to easily addicted to anything.
- penagwin 8y agoI have pretty bad depression and mindfulness (metacognition/awareness of your emotions) have a lot to do with memories. I'm often not "aware" that I'm happy/sad/angry, etc. and my memories reflect that. Just taking a moment and thinking about what I'm currently feeling can be surprising to me. I think this relates a lot here, people who are well aware of their emotions may observe the effects the drugs have on them, not just when they're high/coming down but also it's affects on their day to day lives.
- mruts 8y ago
- badrabbit 8y agoThere is emotional pain and then there is physiological pain. Drugs and alcohol alleviate emotional pain and have physilogical "pleasure" effects in some cases. But most of the negative effects that are frequently talked about are physiological. Apples shouldn't be compared to oranges. A good comparison would for example be to compare the pleasures of drugs against the emotional toll caused by the negative sociological effects (can't get jobs,stigma,less friends in some cases,unintended harm to loved ones,etc...) People take medical drugs like anti-depressants all the time knowing full well long term use can have side effects and even in the short term there can be severe side effects.
- Elof 8y agoI think, because of how society views alcohol, it's possible for not drinking to have a negative sociological and emotional effect. For example, someone gets passed up for a promotion because they don't go out to happy hour.
- Ancalagon 8y agoThis. This is huge for me as well. There is definitely a societal expectation to drink in certain situations, and if you don't, you're viewed as one of the un-cool guys. Probably another thing that will require change at the leadership level to be really corrected over time.
- beatgammit 8y agoAnd it's really dangerous for people predisposed to alcoholism. In the past, smoking was similar, and it has serious long term negative physiological effects. I don't drink, and fortunately I've never worked in an office where that mattered, but my personal choices in consuming drugs should have no professional repercussions unless it negatively impacts my job performance.
- mactrey 8y agoNot drinking can have a negative sociological and emotional effect regardless of how society views alcohol. I've had numerous interesting/strange life experiences that probably wouldn't have been possible without alcohol. I'll gladly pay the price of having a few bad hangovers and worse factual recall to (hopefully) continue to have those kinds of experiences.
- rconti 8y agoI know everyone is recommending the book Why We Sleep, but I'll pile on and say that I found it to be a fantastic read, and the consequences of alcohol consumption are devastating. Stats like 40+% reduction in retained information from just a few drinks the night after learning new facts. Or the night BEFORE learning new facts. And how the ill consequences occur even if you abstain for several DAYS after learning new facts, then have several drinks 3 days later.
- rgbrenner 8y agoThat's interesting.. I wasn't aware this was studied. I stopped drinking years ago because I noticed that alcohol reduced the amount of code I could hold in my head, even up to a week later.
- pm90 8y agoHow much code do you hold in your head?
- rgbrenner 8y agoI don't think there's a good answer to this... it varies depending on the language, familiarity of the codebase, complexity, novelty/difficulty of the problem/solution, how repetitive the code is, etc. So I don't think comparisons can be made between people, even if they're looking at the same code base (since what is difficult for me, may be easy for you, and therefore easier for you to comprehend and remember... but if we look at another codebase, the opposite may be true.)
- jrs95 8y ago7
- anon1253 8y ago+/- 2 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magical_Number_Seven,_Plus_or_Minus_Two https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Magical_Number_Seven,_Plus...)
- Apocryphon 8y agoWeirdly enough, at certain amounts of alcohol, I start to think about memories I haven't had in years. Nothing traumatic nor nostalgic, but just mundane memories from school or childhood. I suppose it's just the mind wandering to thoughts it normally doesn't think about while inebriated, forming unusual connections.
- mirimir 8y agoAnd so we have "Diamonds and Rust" :) original Joan Baez version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ST9TZBb9v8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ST9TZBb9v8 Judas Priest version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OHJP1BSVgM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OHJP1BSVgM
- cheschire 8y agoThere's even pop culture references for such a phenomenon. As an example, in the movie Beerfest, they get one of the characters drunk so he can recall the way to a secret place that he had only previously experienced drunk before.
- kps 8y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-dependent_memory#Substances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-dependent_memory#Substan...
- kevstev 8y agoI actually once had a situation like this- in the village in NYC there is a secret club/lounge my friend took me to one night. That area is just filled with bars that these days are overrun with tourists and the post-college crowd. I went out to dinner with a friend one night about two years later, we had a few, and were looking for a night cap, and I was like ugh, lets just leave the neighborhood to avoid these loud places you have to fight for space in. But... then I walked by this almost suspectly non-descript steel door at the bottom of a few stairs, and some part of my brain said "there is a secret club/lounge behind this door." It was kind of surreal. I hesitantly opened it, and what do you know... there we were.
- hamandcheese 8y ago> They make people nauseous or they give people hangovers, so why do we find them so rewarding? Why do we remember the good things about them and not the bad? Is this not generally true? I like to hike, but a lot of times climbing a mountain is absolutely miserable, and I might be sore for some time afterword. Yet I always remember it as a great experience. Or with past relationships, I have to try to remember the bad parts, but the good parts come easily.
- aurailious 8y agoI remember when I climbed Guadalupe peak in west Texas. I got to the gate around 3:50, and 4pm is when they close new permits for camping near the summit. Well I start climbing and because I started to late the sun set before I even reached the camp site. So I set up my tent nearly in the dark as the temperatures were dropping. Well, I knew it was going to be cold, but I lived in Texas at the time and didn't really remember what to do in sub freezing temperatures overnight. Stayed up nearly the entire night shivering. But I'll never forget the sun rise up the flat Texas horizon from the tallest peak in the state. It was so beautiful and peaceful there. Clear skies, everything was perfect. I don't really remember the night before anymore, just that I need to pack some extra layers next time.
- koolba 8y agoAlso people tend to remember group shenanigans and drinking leads to more of it than teetotaling.
- dilyevsky 8y agoThere’s even more similarity because high altitude appears to be causing permanent brain damage - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16443427 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16443427
- Godel_unicode 8y agoI doubt that study is relevant, considering all the mountains in question are close to twice the altitude of Guadalupe.
- 8y ago
- Ancalagon 8y agoInteresting that so many others in this thread experience the same side effects on their learning capabilities caused by even just a few drinks and/or lack of sleep. I feel significantly slower and much more mentally "foggy" for days after I drink more than 1-2 drinks in a sitting. I'm definitely still a social drinker, but this affirms my opinion that I need to further reduce my alcohol consumption (preferably remove it altogether).
- easytiger 8y ago> I feel significantly slower and much more mentally "foggy" for days after I drink more than 1-2 drinks in a sitting. If it only takes 3 drinks and has this effect you clearly can't metabolise alcohol well and have a genetic difference to others, because that's not a normal westerner's experience. Perhaps you have an enzyme difference along the chain of breakdown
- 64StarFox64 8y agoTo me, this is the beginning of one such mechanistic explanation for alcohol addiction. In particular, this is interesting when you consider the several (many?) studies that link early age (binge-)drinking with increased likelihood of alcoholism. One wonders whether the Notch "domino" is more susceptible in younger brains.
- senthil_rajasek 8y agoOn the positive side, some people do drink to forget.
- minikites 8y agoIf alcohol were invented today, I don't think there's any way it would be legal in most nations. The only reason we tolerate it as a society is millennia of inertia.
- vasilipupkin 8y agoGeez, lighten up. Yes, some people definitely develop alcohol addiction but about 80% do not and are free to enjoy good quality drinks that not only give you a buzz, but also potentially taste great like good wine or whisky or mezcal.
- noarchy 8y agoI think there is almost a neo-Prohibitionist attitude coming from some, of late. Though this is largely anecdotal, I think it got ratcheted up by the movement to see marijuana legalized, where weed has often been compared to alcohol. Aside from this, I agree that the vast majority can enjoy these substances without destroying themselves, leading very productive lives with some of the evident downsides that even casual consumption can bring.
- mattkrause 8y agoI always wonder how much publication bias exists in these fields: “Drug X isn’t that bad for you” seems like it might be a lot harder to publish than series of papers ratcheting up the severity of some bad effects.
- obstacle1 8y agoThe entire point of this thread is that even small doses of alcohol -- doses well within what we consider to be moderate drinking -- have fairly extreme negative effects on memory. This is a problem even for the 80% of drinkers who do not develop alcohol addiction. As we start to actually study the effects of alcohol, it really looks like it is a hard drug with no net positive effects at anything over a minuscule dose.
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- hnuser355 8y agoPerhaps it’s weird but I don’t seem to have this issue. But I generally drink 1 standard drink per day max (actually weighed out on my little scale cause I am a huge dork) and only 5x per week probably. I basically feel a bit happier and a bit lazier after drinking some alcohol. Mildly more social.
- mirimir 8y agoSo does 10 mg zolpidem tartrate. As in, totally prevents memory formation. Gotta be careful with that stuff. And prototypically, marijuana. Back in the day, I'd always see movies stoned. That way, if I liked them, I could see them again freshly. And if I didn't liked them, I could forget about them more easily.
- Marsymars 8y agoBrain injury can also obliterate memory abilities. I've had a single moderate concussion, where one of my first memories afterwards is of sitting in the hospital emergency room with a couple friends. I had a notebook with my handwriting, containing several pages of questions/answers that my friends had me write down so they could stop repeating themselves to me.
- mirimir 8y agoHey, but at least you had friends and something to write with :) Overwhelmed as one would be, placed in my position Such a heavy burden now to be the one Born to bear and bring to all the details of our ending To write it down for all the world to see But I forgot my pen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZXJLQntCP0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZXJLQntCP0
- bbqq 8y agoLiterally had this song playing by pure chance from a big shuffle playlist, and did a double take. How's that for chance :)
- dingo_bat 8y ago> Brain injury can also obliterate memory abilities. I think any kind of shock/adventure can mess with memories. I was in a nasty car accident about half a decade ago. I escaped virtually un-hurt (just some bruises and bumps all over). I can only remember flashes from before and after the accident. None of us in the car can recall what actually happened (even the driver!). One moment we were cruising smoothly at about 100km/h and the next moment I'm crawling out through the windscreen, because the car is upturned and the passenger window is crushed closed. None of us had anything more severe than a few bumps and a couple of scratches in my palm from the broken glass. But none of us can clearly remember how it happened, how I called for help on my phone, how we were taken to the hospital.
- jdpigeon 8y agoSo, activity-dependent signaling cascades can cause single nucleotide substitutions during transcription? Oh my god, I remember why I left neuroscience now. Biology is just incomprehensibly, nauseatingly, complex.
- deepGem 8y agoI somehow remember most of my good memories when I was drunk and buzzed. On those few occasions that I had passed out completely, I remember the time till I passed out, like the time I just barely reaching my hotel door, opened and collapsed on the floor. On the most strenuous hikes or endurance activities that I have undertaken, I have vivid memories of the struggle, like I can remember feeling so thirsty and walking for most of the last 5K. I also remember how foolish was I to play an 18 hole the next day, without using a buggy (talk about male ego). By the time I reached the 18th hole I was about to pass out and collapse. Nowadays I stay away from alcohol and just restrict myself to a single beer or a glass of wine. It takes me 4-5 pints to get buzzed and leaves me with a terrible headache later. Not a good sign.
- theNJR 8y agoHow do you know you remembered everything? Obviously you don’t remember what you don’t remember.
- thunderbong 8y agoAlcohol also makes us loose or inhibitions. I wonder why that is
- angel_j 8y agoinhibition is retention (of some state, or feeling, like "safe"); alcohol helps u forget; what inhibition?
- gpvos 8y agoThey explain what a molecular signaling pathway is, but what is a "conserved molecular pathway", i.e., what is "conserved" about it?
- handsomechad 8y agoEver since practicing mindfulness and become more aware of my emotional state, drinking alcohol has become a nonstarter for me. It took a while for me to truly connect the dots, but, following a night of imbibing, I crash really hard on not just a physiological level but an emotional, psychological level as well. In fact I find it hard to separate the two reactions. To me they are basically the same thing, overall increased levels of "pain" or "anxiety" or "neurosis" manifesting in my inner being, my soul if you will. I know that sounds a bit woo woo but it's sort of an ineffable and inarticulable idea. I'm 100% sure I feel it though, every time I drink I sleep poorly, I'm much more irritable once the alcohol wears off the next afternoon, and by the time the evening comes around, assuming I don't re-dose, I'm much more prone to ruminate on negative thoughts or seek mindless stimulation to distract my mind from the general malaise. I think alcohol really is a mainstream and socially acceptable means of anxiety self-medication. It's a deeply engrained cultural habit that has been around for millenia, and I don't expect or advocate for it to stop, but for me it has palpable deleterious effects on my whole being.
- Steve44 8y agoOne aspect which is often not considered with alcohol is that it’s one of the few drugs where you’re not just taking it to experience its affect – to get drunk. There are so many fantastically variable tastes and mouth feels with drinks that for many the majority of the pleasure is actually in consuming them. Wines & beers are a pleasure to drink and can go extremely well with food, often adding another layer to the enjoyment of the meal. Sipping spirits and cocktails can be a fantastic sensory experience, there is a whole world of flavours to explore and enjoy. The getting tipsy / drunk part is, of course, part of it and some people do go too far. It also has a lot of other problems but don’t lose sight that there is so much more to it than just getting drunk.
- theNJR 8y agoPeople say the same about cofffe. Although I suspect 8 out of 10 times people just want the caffeine hit and should ingest via pill instead.
- beatgammit 8y agoYeah, I feel like it's a justification more than anything. I feel like people become prudes because they want something more to their desire for more alcohol/caffeine instead of the other way around. For example, there are plenty of non-alcoholic, non-caffeinated beverages, but few with as much subtle variety as alcoholic/caffeinated beverages. For example: - kefir - kombucha (though it's pretty trendy these days) - probiotic drinks Each of those has some variety, but I can find far more variety in pretty much any category of spirits (beer, wine, cider, hard liquor, etc) and caffeinated drinks (coffee, tea). I can find maybe a dozen varieties of the above, whereas I can find at least a dozen subcategories of wine or coffee, with tons of variation within each subcategory. I have a hard time believing that the main attraction for coffee and alcohol connoisseurs is taste/texture/etc and not the drug inside the beverage. In other words, if the drug had no effect on humans, would there be a similar level of interest?
- syn0byte 8y agoI was gonna make a sarcastic remark about how O'Douls and other NA beer must be booming business if alcohol wasn't the main attraction... https://www.brewbound.com/news/brewers-large-and-small-take-aim-at-non-alcoholic-beer-segment https://www.brewbound.com/news/brewers-large-and-small-take-... Joke's on me eh?