8 ms·

One reason is because I think there isn't such an obsession with becoming a billionaire here. If you're a founder, and someone offers you a deal which will pers

One reason is because I think there isn't such an obsession with becoming a billionaire here. If you're a founder, and someone offers you a deal which will personally see you net €10-20m after tax, why wouldn't you take it?

jamesblonde 8y ago
I agree. However, I know the Data Artisans founders personally. There like like 6 or 7 of them, and Prof Volker Merkl (main person behind the original project, Stratosphere). Then, they did two funding rounds. Nobody is coming out with near 10m euro. Half that, before tax, probably after a few years of golden handcuffs. So, my guess is 3m euro after 10+ years. Not bad, but you couldn't buy a good house in the valley or SF for that.
- azag0 8y ago
  For a perspective, 3m euro is about two lifetimes of an average salary in Berlin (north of 2k monthly after taxes)
  - eastendguy 8y ago
    Nobody in IT earns only 2K a month in Berlin...
    - shinryuu 8y ago
      It's after tax. I earn 2.5k after tax.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - ChuckNorris89 8y ago
        That seems pretty low to me. Can you buy a house in Berlin with that income? It's almost what a dev makes in Romania and there you can buy a decent house with that income.
        expertentipp 8y ago
        Buy?! You'll have hard time renting, and money is only part of the issue.
        Aeolun 8y ago
        In the Netherlands that would be fairly normal too. Comes out to around €4000 per month pre-tax, or €56000 (12m + 2m bonus) per year.
        ido 8y ago
        It is normal in Germany & even more so in the big cities like Berlin for people to rent their whole lives - there are a lot of tenants protections & rent control here that make that less risky.
        ChuckNorris89 8y ago
        So many people renting their whole lives sounds to me like in Germany most properties are owned by a privileged few and the remaining being forced to be their tennants. Does nobody see anything wrong with that? Rent control laws don't make this OK in my book.
        pantalaimon 8y ago
        Well there are indeed many people who call for expropriation now. https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/civey-umfrage-fuer-den-tagesspiegel-mehrheit-der-berliner-fuer-enteignung-von-grossvermietern/23837788.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/civey-umfrage-fuer-den-ta...
        expertentipp 8y ago
        Yes, consolidations on the market are a thing with an additional side effect - as owning a property is professonalized it’s even more difficult and expensive for an individual to own.
        ido 8y ago
        If you're asking for my opinion residential real estate should be publicly owned, like hospitals, transport infrastructure, (public) schools/universities, etc. Or at the very least the land under it should never be sold, only leased from the state.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - pantalaimon 8y ago
      Well I do…
      - ChuckNorris89 8y ago
        By any chance, do you also happen to be Romanian? :)
        pantalaimon 8y ago
        No, German in Berlin.
        expertentipp 8y ago
        Having talked with some Romanians, software professionals’ salaries in Romania are not far behind average German ones. They wouldn't be the first I would accuse of wage dumping (that would be Ukrainians, Russians, Bangladeshis, and Indians). It’s that everything else in Romania is shit.
        ChuckNorris89 8y ago
        Except the nationalities you listed are not EU while Romanians are. Thre's plenty of things wrong with Romania starting with the corruption, but I wouldn't say everything is shit. Othwewise the local tech hubs wouldn't be full of westerners working here. I also miss the above average wages and the above average women. :) Seeing the wages in Germany vs the property prices makes me feel poor.
    - ahartmetz 8y ago
      2k net is doable but rare and becoming rarer. I guess the average is around 3k net.
- locklock 8y ago
  You can certainly buy a nice house in Berlin for it though!
  - ajaxaddicted 8y ago
    Why would someone do that though. You can buy a much nicer house in Spain
    - jamisteven 8y ago
      Living in Zurich, and think this very thing daily.
    - ionised 8y ago
      I'd rather live in Germany than Spain.
      - ajaxaddicted 8y ago
        Once you are financially secure, living in Germany makes no sense. Shitty weather, the insane apartment situation in any major city, shitty services(any company with Deutsche in front - Deutsche Bahn, Deutsche Bank, Deutsche Telekom, Deutsche Wohnen), the beurocratic burden in your day to day live - everything takes forever to get done here. Spain is not perfect, but oh my god is Germany overrated
        ionised 8y ago
        > Once you are financially secure, living in Germany makes no sense. How so? > Shitty weather To me, constant heat and sunshine is shitty weather. I prefer a temperate/boreal climate. I find it far more pleasant. > the insane apartment situation in any major city So just like every other major city currently. > shitty services They are going to have to be extraordinarily shitty to be worse than what I have already in the UK. I've spent enough time in Spain to know I'd never want to live there, and enough in Germany to know that it is very attractive to me.
- jamesblonde 8y ago
  Edit: Kostas announced on Twitter that Data Artisans recently also had an undisclosed Series B. So, the founders probably received a bit less that I wrote above. If the founders lost control of the board in the Series B, they may have received a good bit less than I wrote previously.
usrusr 8y ago
Slightly related is how it is mathematically impossible for VC to develop that "99 duds, one win" mindset that dominates SV when wins are not expected to become big enough to compensate that many losses. High failure rate VC cannot exist without robber-baron style exploitation of the occasional victory. Only bootstrappers are free to be modest.

jamesblonde 8y ago

I agree. However, I know the Data Artisans founders personally. There like like 6 or 7 of them, and Prof Volker Merkl (main person behind the original project, Stratosphere). Then, they did two funding rounds. Nobody is coming out with near 10m euro. Half that, before tax, probably after a few years of golden handcuffs. So, my guess is 3m euro after 10+ years. Not bad, but you couldn't buy a good house in the valley or SF for that.

azag0 8y ago
For a perspective, 3m euro is about two lifetimes of an average salary in Berlin (north of 2k monthly after taxes)
- eastendguy 8y ago
  Nobody in IT earns only 2K a month in Berlin...
  - shinryuu 8y ago
    It's after tax. I earn 2.5k after tax.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - ChuckNorris89 8y ago
      That seems pretty low to me. Can you buy a house in Berlin with that income? It's almost what a dev makes in Romania and there you can buy a decent house with that income.
      - expertentipp 8y ago
        Buy?! You'll have hard time renting, and money is only part of the issue.
      - Aeolun 8y ago
        In the Netherlands that would be fairly normal too. Comes out to around €4000 per month pre-tax, or €56000 (12m + 2m bonus) per year.
      - ido 8y ago
        It is normal in Germany & even more so in the big cities like Berlin for people to rent their whole lives - there are a lot of tenants protections & rent control here that make that less risky.
        ChuckNorris89 8y ago
        So many people renting their whole lives sounds to me like in Germany most properties are owned by a privileged few and the remaining being forced to be their tennants. Does nobody see anything wrong with that? Rent control laws don't make this OK in my book.
        pantalaimon 8y ago
        Well there are indeed many people who call for expropriation now. https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/civey-umfrage-fuer-den-tagesspiegel-mehrheit-der-berliner-fuer-enteignung-von-grossvermietern/23837788.html https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/civey-umfrage-fuer-den-ta...
        expertentipp 8y ago
        Yes, consolidations on the market are a thing with an additional side effect - as owning a property is professonalized it’s even more difficult and expensive for an individual to own.
        ido 8y ago
        If you're asking for my opinion residential real estate should be publicly owned, like hospitals, transport infrastructure, (public) schools/universities, etc. Or at the very least the land under it should never be sold, only leased from the state.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - pantalaimon 8y ago
    Well I do…
    - ChuckNorris89 8y ago
      By any chance, do you also happen to be Romanian? :)
      - pantalaimon 8y ago
        No, German in Berlin.
      - expertentipp 8y ago
        Having talked with some Romanians, software professionals’ salaries in Romania are not far behind average German ones. They wouldn't be the first I would accuse of wage dumping (that would be Ukrainians, Russians, Bangladeshis, and Indians). It’s that everything else in Romania is shit.
        ChuckNorris89 8y ago
        Except the nationalities you listed are not EU while Romanians are. Thre's plenty of things wrong with Romania starting with the corruption, but I wouldn't say everything is shit. Othwewise the local tech hubs wouldn't be full of westerners working here. I also miss the above average wages and the above average women. :) Seeing the wages in Germany vs the property prices makes me feel poor.
  - ahartmetz 8y ago
    2k net is doable but rare and becoming rarer. I guess the average is around 3k net.
locklock 8y ago
You can certainly buy a nice house in Berlin for it though!
- ajaxaddicted 8y ago
  Why would someone do that though. You can buy a much nicer house in Spain
  - jamisteven 8y ago
    Living in Zurich, and think this very thing daily.
  - ionised 8y ago
    I'd rather live in Germany than Spain.
    - ajaxaddicted 8y ago
      Once you are financially secure, living in Germany makes no sense. Shitty weather, the insane apartment situation in any major city, shitty services(any company with Deutsche in front - Deutsche Bahn, Deutsche Bank, Deutsche Telekom, Deutsche Wohnen), the beurocratic burden in your day to day live - everything takes forever to get done here. Spain is not perfect, but oh my god is Germany overrated
      - ionised 8y ago
        > Once you are financially secure, living in Germany makes no sense. How so? > Shitty weather To me, constant heat and sunshine is shitty weather. I prefer a temperate/boreal climate. I find it far more pleasant. > the insane apartment situation in any major city So just like every other major city currently. > shitty services They are going to have to be extraordinarily shitty to be worse than what I have already in the UK. I've spent enough time in Spain to know I'd never want to live there, and enough in Germany to know that it is very attractive to me.
jamesblonde 8y ago
Edit: Kostas announced on Twitter that Data Artisans recently also had an undisclosed Series B. So, the founders probably received a bit less that I wrote above. If the founders lost control of the board in the Series B, they may have received a good bit less than I wrote previously.

usrusr 8y ago

Slightly related is how it is mathematically impossible for VC to develop that "99 duds, one win" mindset that dominates SV when wins are not expected to become big enough to compensate that many losses. High failure rate VC cannot exist without robber-baron style exploitation of the occasional victory. Only bootstrappers are free to be modest.