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This is just an out-of-context tweet (well, the context is there - it's a reply to another tweet, which is out of context)... so perhaps it was just auto-crash

This is just an out-of-context tweet (well, the context is there - it's a reply to another tweet, which is out of context)... so perhaps it was just auto-crash reports, but I wonder if you get more tickets from Linux users, because Linux users are more likely to file tickets? When something crashes on my partner's computer she yells at it and restarts it. When something crashes on my computer I spend an hour trying to figure out WHY. If I can't figure it out, I log a ticket thinking I'm being a good citizen!

kosievdmerwe 8y ago
They still represent a vastly disproportionate amount of work for how much extra money they get you. They get you 0.1% extra sales, but they cost you 25% (= 20/80*100) extra support work. And this is nevermind the extra time spent during development. Your point would hold if the issues reported by Linux users would also fix issues on Windows. Some issues would occur on both systems, but I bet the vast majority is weird Linux and setup specific bugs.
- rusk 8y ago
  > I bet the vast majority This is the crux of your assertion and requires substantiation. On the other hands, all these Linux user might be doing you "a favour" taking the time to log these tickets that less conscientious users on other systems would. Of course that does depend on the classification of the tickets but coming from that community I wouldn't expect them to be trivial issues ...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - Jach 8y ago
    It's even more of a favor if the bugs aren't just linux-only. But if they're in gfx drivers like the tweet implies and auto-reported, the only thing you'd really care about is "newest drivers?" Same as the parade of crashes in Windows for the same reason, you want to just tell people to update.
    - bluedino 8y ago
      Which is why chromium pulled support for certain drivers on linux
      - r3bl 8y ago
        They didn't pull the support at all. They've added another driver to a long list of blocklisted drivers that cause issues with the hardware acceleration. Nothing about that list is Linux-specific, as it includes a bunch of macOS and Windows drivers as well: https://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/gpu/config/software_rendering_list_json.cc https://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/gpu/config/... Firefox does that too: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Blocklisting/Blocked_Graphics_Drivers https://wiki.mozilla.org/Blocklisting/Blocked_Graphics_Drive... Between a crashy browser thanks to a crappy driver and a stable browser without hardware acceleration, browsers will always just take the latter route. Don't like it? Run it with a flag and expect it to be a little less stable. That's it. You absolutely can't blame neither the browser nor the platform for that, only the vendor of the driver (or in this specific case NVidia, since it's actively hostile to the vendor).
    - rusk 8y ago
      I'd expect that class of bug is easy enough to triage ... what's the problem?
  - munificent 8y ago
    > requires substantiation. From the linked series of tweets: "In the end they accounted for <0.1% of sales but >20% of auto reported crashes and support tickets (most gfx driver related)." "So yes, fragmentation is still totally an issue." "We eventually laid out a guide with known good versions of Linux and graphics drivers, but it didn't matter. Part of the allure of Linux is the customizability, so few actually stuck to it, and generally wanted to run the game on older hardware we didn't support."
- pbhjpbhj 8y ago
  >They still represent a vastly disproportionate amount of work for how much extra money they get you. // (With a sarcastic tone ...) So you spend 1000 man-years developing your AAA title, which you release for MS Windows only. Then someone makes a WINE wrapper on their w/e off and you start selling on Steam as being able to run (but not supported) on Linux. Now you find so many more Linux users filing bug reports to help you fix your game ... Bloody Linux users, eh, who'd have them.
  - learc83 8y ago
    That's not what happened in the article (tweet). They released a native Linux version.
    - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
      Sorry, I thought the thread was about the broader subject of supporting Linux gamers rather than Planetary Annihilation alone. The title should probably be changed.
- bluedino 8y ago
  You'd thinking having another build target would help find bugs on existing platforms. Kind of like the BSD's. Didn't ID software outsource the Linux ports to someone in the community and just provide it as free?
- kurtisc 8y ago
  Why do they have to do the work? If someone releases a game and I play it, maybe I get a Linux-only bug where the audio sometimes becomes static-y until I reset (real world example). If I file a bug for that, they probably won't fix it and I probably will (and did) continue playing. I lose nothing, they lose the time to triage a bug. If I can't launch the game and I file a ticket, it's probably because I either want to exchange my money for a working game - which on my own might not be enough incentive for them, and that's OK - or because I have to do it because of asinine refunds policies. The developer is framing bug reports as a burden, when really they're neutral or a benefit - the bug that exists because of the lack of platform-specific work is the burden. That's understandable, there are a lot of platforms and not a lot of paying players. If bug reports are not a benefit, perhaps software will stop trying to send usage data back home? I doubt it.
  - kosievdmerwe 8y ago
    Because having a buggy game on any platform is a reputational risk. If your game is buggy, people will complain and people on other platforms might reconsider buying even though the version they'll get might be bug free.
- gmueckl 8y ago
  Historically, that 0.1% income claim has been disproven a couple of times. Some indies reported a pretty even split between Windows, MacOS and Linux and even a willingness for Linux gamers to pay more. But that was before Steam for Linux, so I do not know how that has changed things. Just wanted to throw that out there.
ken 8y ago
Similarly, if I hear from all my friends that a program crashes a lot on Linux, I'm much less likely to want to download it in the first place.

kosievdmerwe 8y ago

They still represent a vastly disproportionate amount of work for how much extra money they get you. They get you 0.1% extra sales, but they cost you 25% (= 20/80*100) extra support work. And this is nevermind the extra time spent during development. Your point would hold if the issues reported by Linux users would also fix issues on Windows. Some issues would occur on both systems, but I bet the vast majority is weird Linux and setup specific bugs.

rusk 8y ago
> I bet the vast majority This is the crux of your assertion and requires substantiation. On the other hands, all these Linux user might be doing you "a favour" taking the time to log these tickets that less conscientious users on other systems would. Of course that does depend on the classification of the tickets but coming from that community I wouldn't expect them to be trivial issues ...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- Jach 8y ago
  It's even more of a favor if the bugs aren't just linux-only. But if they're in gfx drivers like the tweet implies and auto-reported, the only thing you'd really care about is "newest drivers?" Same as the parade of crashes in Windows for the same reason, you want to just tell people to update.
  - bluedino 8y ago
    Which is why chromium pulled support for certain drivers on linux
    - r3bl 8y ago
      They didn't pull the support at all. They've added another driver to a long list of blocklisted drivers that cause issues with the hardware acceleration. Nothing about that list is Linux-specific, as it includes a bunch of macOS and Windows drivers as well: https://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/gpu/config/software_rendering_list_json.cc https://src.chromium.org/viewvc/chrome/trunk/src/gpu/config/... Firefox does that too: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Blocklisting/Blocked_Graphics_Drivers https://wiki.mozilla.org/Blocklisting/Blocked_Graphics_Drive... Between a crashy browser thanks to a crappy driver and a stable browser without hardware acceleration, browsers will always just take the latter route. Don't like it? Run it with a flag and expect it to be a little less stable. That's it. You absolutely can't blame neither the browser nor the platform for that, only the vendor of the driver (or in this specific case NVidia, since it's actively hostile to the vendor).
  - rusk 8y ago
    I'd expect that class of bug is easy enough to triage ... what's the problem?
- munificent 8y ago
  > requires substantiation. From the linked series of tweets: "In the end they accounted for <0.1% of sales but >20% of auto reported crashes and support tickets (most gfx driver related)." "So yes, fragmentation is still totally an issue." "We eventually laid out a guide with known good versions of Linux and graphics drivers, but it didn't matter. Part of the allure of Linux is the customizability, so few actually stuck to it, and generally wanted to run the game on older hardware we didn't support."
pbhjpbhj 8y ago
>They still represent a vastly disproportionate amount of work for how much extra money they get you. // (With a sarcastic tone ...) So you spend 1000 man-years developing your AAA title, which you release for MS Windows only. Then someone makes a WINE wrapper on their w/e off and you start selling on Steam as being able to run (but not supported) on Linux. Now you find so many more Linux users filing bug reports to help you fix your game ... Bloody Linux users, eh, who'd have them.
- learc83 8y ago
  That's not what happened in the article (tweet). They released a native Linux version.
  - pbhjpbhj 8y ago
    Sorry, I thought the thread was about the broader subject of supporting Linux gamers rather than Planetary Annihilation alone. The title should probably be changed.
bluedino 8y ago
You'd thinking having another build target would help find bugs on existing platforms. Kind of like the BSD's. Didn't ID software outsource the Linux ports to someone in the community and just provide it as free?
kurtisc 8y ago
Why do they have to do the work? If someone releases a game and I play it, maybe I get a Linux-only bug where the audio sometimes becomes static-y until I reset (real world example). If I file a bug for that, they probably won't fix it and I probably will (and did) continue playing. I lose nothing, they lose the time to triage a bug. If I can't launch the game and I file a ticket, it's probably because I either want to exchange my money for a working game - which on my own might not be enough incentive for them, and that's OK - or because I have to do it because of asinine refunds policies. The developer is framing bug reports as a burden, when really they're neutral or a benefit - the bug that exists because of the lack of platform-specific work is the burden. That's understandable, there are a lot of platforms and not a lot of paying players. If bug reports are not a benefit, perhaps software will stop trying to send usage data back home? I doubt it.
- kosievdmerwe 8y ago
  Because having a buggy game on any platform is a reputational risk. If your game is buggy, people will complain and people on other platforms might reconsider buying even though the version they'll get might be bug free.
gmueckl 8y ago
Historically, that 0.1% income claim has been disproven a couple of times. Some indies reported a pretty even split between Windows, MacOS and Linux and even a willingness for Linux gamers to pay more. But that was before Steam for Linux, so I do not know how that has changed things. Just wanted to throw that out there.

ken 8y ago

Similarly, if I hear from all my friends that a program crashes a lot on Linux, I'm much less likely to want to download it in the first place.