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It's not arguing by appealing to authority when they are the experts in a field...

by apcragg 8y ago

treis 8y ago
That's exactly what appealing to authority is. They are an authority precisely because they are experts in the field
- jerf 8y ago
  Yes, but "appeal to actual authority" is a positive description of an argument, not a fallacy. The fallacy is appeal to irrelevant or incorrect authority. This is like the third time in the past couple of months I've had to make this point. Is there someone out there actually telling people that using what authorities say in an argument is always wrong?
  - jMyles 8y ago
    You're missing the point. Presenting a source for a claim is fine, but the naked fact that the author of the source is an expert in the field is not sufficient. You need to also show that their expertise is properly applied. The person with whom you are arguing is making the point that they may have been misdirected by prompting that turns out to have been questionable, and that they acted on this instead of properly applying their expertise. If you're saying something like, "Well that's just not possible! They're an authority on this topic!" ...then yes, you are committing (arguably the quintessential) fallacy of appealing to authority.
    - jerf 8y ago
      It is also a fallacy that every argument must spell out every step. You are allowed to jump over simple things like "doctors qualified to examine these people are qualified to have opinions about them." Is the claim that you fear that they may have been examined by random hobos grabbed off the streets? Who are somehow associated with that group of doctors? By what stretch of the imagination are these not relevant authorities? Demanding to have that spelled out is either demanding to have your intellect insulted, or simply mendacity. I trust those doctors far more than I trust people trying to chop logic on some random programming site.
    - will_brown 8y ago
      >You're missing the point. Presenting a source for a claim is fine, but the naked fact that the author of the source is an expert in the field is not sufficient. Only that’s not what I did. The other party is a neurologist, so the appeal to authority would be the same on either side. UPenn treated the patients (separately doctors from UM went to Cuba and treated the patients) and all have ruled out A psychosomatic cause. Then you have a neurologist who hasn’t seen/treated the patients diagnosing them with psychosomatic mass Hysteria. My point is clearly not an appeal to authority. Anyone who is siding with the neurologist is appealing to authority, I’m saying it’s odd to dismiss the different groups of physicians who actually treated patients and have data.
  - darawk 8y ago
    Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. The authority of a source is not absolute proof of a claim. It is evidence, and it is evidence that should probably be given extra weight commensurate with the authority of the source. However, usually when someone says "you're appealing to authority" what they mean is: yes I accept your source, but just because they have authority does not make them beyond reproach, or beyond error, and here is why I think that, even though they are authoritative, they are wrong in this instance.
    - jay_kyburz 8y ago
      Yes, but I think what is being argued above is "my authority is more qualified than your authority"
      - darawk 8y ago
        I don't think that's what's being said at all. He makes a specific set of points about why this authority is wrong here, points that the other commenter hasn't tried to address, except by reasserting the authority of the source. That's why it's an appeal to authority.
        jay_kyburz 8y ago
        I don't see any specific points where bjourne points out why the UPenn Doctors are wrong. He just points out that they are not infallible and says they may have been primed. As you said, and I very much agree with "The authority of a source is not absolute proof of a claim. It is evidence, and it is evidence that should probably be given extra weight commensurate with the authority of the source" I believe what bjourne is saying is that he believed the crickets story because he places more weight with the authority pushing that story. will_brown is saying he things UPenn doctors have more authority. quick edit: What I am trying to say is that bjourne should not just blow off the UPenn authority, but instead justify his own authority is better.
        darawk 8y ago
  - DoctorOetker 8y ago
    Appeal to "actual" authority is still appeal to authority. Consider an unproven theorem in the MetaMath database. Now consider an amateur mathematician, or perhaps a high school student finding and formalizing a proof. Irrespective of how (un)interesting the theorem is, Norman Megill and the users of MetaMath can verify (by pure reasoning) the theorem regardless of the authority status of the author of the proof. Appeal to "actual authority" is just appeal to authority, which is a potential proxy for truth, and the phrase "appeal to authority" reminds us that sound reasoning and logic is superior to any reference to status or past achievements.
  - jay_kyburz 8y ago
    Yes, Trump is. Climate deniers are. Lots of people are on today's internet.

It's not arguing by appealing to authority when they are the experts in a field...

treis 8y ago

That's exactly what appealing to authority is. They are an authority precisely because they are experts in the field

jerf 8y ago
Yes, but "appeal to actual authority" is a positive description of an argument, not a fallacy. The fallacy is appeal to irrelevant or incorrect authority. This is like the third time in the past couple of months I've had to make this point. Is there someone out there actually telling people that using what authorities say in an argument is always wrong?
- jMyles 8y ago
  You're missing the point. Presenting a source for a claim is fine, but the naked fact that the author of the source is an expert in the field is not sufficient. You need to also show that their expertise is properly applied. The person with whom you are arguing is making the point that they may have been misdirected by prompting that turns out to have been questionable, and that they acted on this instead of properly applying their expertise. If you're saying something like, "Well that's just not possible! They're an authority on this topic!" ...then yes, you are committing (arguably the quintessential) fallacy of appealing to authority.
  - jerf 8y ago
    It is also a fallacy that every argument must spell out every step. You are allowed to jump over simple things like "doctors qualified to examine these people are qualified to have opinions about them." Is the claim that you fear that they may have been examined by random hobos grabbed off the streets? Who are somehow associated with that group of doctors? By what stretch of the imagination are these not relevant authorities? Demanding to have that spelled out is either demanding to have your intellect insulted, or simply mendacity. I trust those doctors far more than I trust people trying to chop logic on some random programming site.
  - will_brown 8y ago
    >You're missing the point. Presenting a source for a claim is fine, but the naked fact that the author of the source is an expert in the field is not sufficient. Only that’s not what I did. The other party is a neurologist, so the appeal to authority would be the same on either side. UPenn treated the patients (separately doctors from UM went to Cuba and treated the patients) and all have ruled out A psychosomatic cause. Then you have a neurologist who hasn’t seen/treated the patients diagnosing them with psychosomatic mass Hysteria. My point is clearly not an appeal to authority. Anyone who is siding with the neurologist is appealing to authority, I’m saying it’s odd to dismiss the different groups of physicians who actually treated patients and have data.
- darawk 8y ago
  Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy. The authority of a source is not absolute proof of a claim. It is evidence, and it is evidence that should probably be given extra weight commensurate with the authority of the source. However, usually when someone says "you're appealing to authority" what they mean is: yes I accept your source, but just because they have authority does not make them beyond reproach, or beyond error, and here is why I think that, even though they are authoritative, they are wrong in this instance.
  - jay_kyburz 8y ago
    Yes, but I think what is being argued above is "my authority is more qualified than your authority"
    - darawk 8y ago
      I don't think that's what's being said at all. He makes a specific set of points about why this authority is wrong here, points that the other commenter hasn't tried to address, except by reasserting the authority of the source. That's why it's an appeal to authority.
      - jay_kyburz 8y ago
        I don't see any specific points where bjourne points out why the UPenn Doctors are wrong. He just points out that they are not infallible and says they may have been primed. As you said, and I very much agree with "The authority of a source is not absolute proof of a claim. It is evidence, and it is evidence that should probably be given extra weight commensurate with the authority of the source" I believe what bjourne is saying is that he believed the crickets story because he places more weight with the authority pushing that story. will_brown is saying he things UPenn doctors have more authority. quick edit: What I am trying to say is that bjourne should not just blow off the UPenn authority, but instead justify his own authority is better.
        darawk 8y ago
- DoctorOetker 8y ago
  Appeal to "actual" authority is still appeal to authority. Consider an unproven theorem in the MetaMath database. Now consider an amateur mathematician, or perhaps a high school student finding and formalizing a proof. Irrespective of how (un)interesting the theorem is, Norman Megill and the users of MetaMath can verify (by pure reasoning) the theorem regardless of the authority status of the author of the proof. Appeal to "actual authority" is just appeal to authority, which is a potential proxy for truth, and the phrase "appeal to authority" reminds us that sound reasoning and logic is superior to any reference to status or past achievements.
- jay_kyburz 8y ago
  Yes, Trump is. Climate deniers are. Lots of people are on today's internet.