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Secrecy: Apple's secrecy is comparable to the U.S. government's in terms of "need to know" and compartmentalization. This. My roommate is a hardware engineer o

by novum 16y ago

Secrecy: Apple's secrecy is comparable to the U.S. government's in terms of "need to know" and compartmentalization. This. My roommate is a hardware engineer on the iPad team, and he won't even confirm that there will be another iPad. He takes extra precautions when working at home - he won't take work calls if I'm in the room, and he set up the furniture in his room in an awkward fashion solely so that his computer monitor didn't face towards the door. Several times I've brought friends or family down to Cupertino. He lets us inside to walk around the inner campus and eat at Caffe Macs, but that's truly all there is to see. Certainly we can't enter any other buildings on Infinite Loop. One thing this article doesn't mention is work-life balance. We live in SF, and my roommate has a 90-minute commute (each way) on the Apple shuttle, and he usually works 12 hours on top of that. He's out by 8am and doesn't usually return until 11pm. He tells me this is a common topic of discussion at Caffe Macs - the balance between working on groundbreaking technology and, quite simply, having zero personal time during the week (and often on the weekends). He can be called to go to China with no more than a few days' notice, and the duration of his stay there is never known ahead of time. He often estimates 7-10 days but it frequently ends up being closer to 2, even 3 weeks. Apple covers all of his expenses, of course, but he doesn't much care for Shenzhen. He really likes working at Apple, but I think he recognizes that it's not a sustainable job for him for more than 3 or 4 years.

Keyframe 16y ago
Sounds like a genuine shithole/borderline slavery. Why are people putting up with this?
- novum 16y ago
  Because he's designing the next iPad. Several people on his team have left Apple for very lucrative careers as designers and engineers at hardware or design firms. It's a phenomenal boost to your career.
  - Keyframe 16y ago
    That's a valid point though. Somehow I confused him as someone senior, since you've said "designing the next iPad" - but then you've said roommate, which does not compute. Then again, something else does not compute in this story. If I were Apple and were about talked-about level of secrecy, I sure wouldn't let people that are designing key products easily let go. On the other hand, if people that were involved in the process, but were not all that important, how lucrative would they be to the competition (since they weren't key in the process - so no lucrative know-how)? edit: I apologize for word mess - I have a headache.
- JabavuAdams 16y ago
  Think of it as doing a post-grad degree. Games are often like this too. Each one is a masters, but if you do good work, the connections and portfolio can make the rest of your career significantly easier. Plus, you're hopefully working on cool stuff.
- TobyS95 16y ago
  Spoken like someone who is punching the clock at Best Buy. If you are in a technical field that deals with anything of any significance, you will work like this for much less world changing projects. Most of the things you touch has a team of engineers that work like this behind it. It could be everyday things like bringing a subway motor , a glucose meter, or a police scanner to reality. Why? I have seen it. Actually, technical staff that work the front end of development the best work/life balance (note that I didn't say good). It the guys that work out the final kinks at the end in manufacturing or testing that really get the pressure. You or team members may not even believe in the project as you go on the death march. At least it sounds like the staff at Apple believe in the final goal.
borski 16y ago
While I only worked at Apple for about 8 months (started as a summer intern), I can completely echo this. It's never that we _have_ to stay later, it's that we _want_ to. You really have a dedication to the product because you want your customers to love you; that was the overall mindset. With a deadline, that means you'll do almost anything to meet it and succeed. As for the secrecy, you're totally right. I roomed with 3 other interns during the summer and none of us would talk shop, ever. When interviewing for other companies later, nearly all my answers about what I did at Apple were "I wish I could talk to you about that, but the most I can do at this point is talk 'around' it, if you will, since that's an unreleased product." Not at all unlike government secrecy. All that said, it really was a glorious place to work. I miss a lot about it; the seemingly infectious excitement and passion for the products was really driving. I loved being in that environment. :)
- ig1 16y ago
  And of course if someone doesn't stay later it means they're not dedicated to the product, so obviously aren't suitable for promotion, salary increases, etc.
  - borski 16y ago
    No, actually, that wasn't usually how it worked. It was all about performance rather than time spent on-site. If you could get done in 4 hours what took me 8, you would be just as eligible for any promotions as I. Probably more-so, however, since you'd probably have worked 8 hours anyway and gotten twice as much done. ;)
    - ig1 16y ago
      It sounds to me like your saying that if someone wanted to work an 8 hour day, they'd have to match what you do in (say) 12 hours ? i.e. if someone was equally productive (or even 25% more productive), but still produced less than you purely because they worked the scheduled hours, than they'd be less likely to get promotions, etc. ?
      - 16y ago
hyperbovine 16y ago
Glad to hear it's not just me! I've got a couple friends working there too, the 007 shtick gets a bit droll sometimes.
nhangen 16y ago
I don't see how it isn't sustainable if you are loving it? Most people would love a job where they don't need to stay, but want to stay.
loewenskind 16y ago
Does the compensation reflect the working hours? That is, your roomate is working at least 50% more than normal [1], does he make 50% more than people who work normal hours doing similar work? [1] I can't comment on the industry standard because Apple is kind of a hybrid between a software and hardware company.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

by novum 16y ago

Keyframe 16y ago

Sounds like a genuine shithole/borderline slavery. Why are people putting up with this?

novum 16y ago
Because he's designing the next iPad. Several people on his team have left Apple for very lucrative careers as designers and engineers at hardware or design firms. It's a phenomenal boost to your career.
- Keyframe 16y ago
  That's a valid point though. Somehow I confused him as someone senior, since you've said "designing the next iPad" - but then you've said roommate, which does not compute. Then again, something else does not compute in this story. If I were Apple and were about talked-about level of secrecy, I sure wouldn't let people that are designing key products easily let go. On the other hand, if people that were involved in the process, but were not all that important, how lucrative would they be to the competition (since they weren't key in the process - so no lucrative know-how)? edit: I apologize for word mess - I have a headache.
JabavuAdams 16y ago
Think of it as doing a post-grad degree. Games are often like this too. Each one is a masters, but if you do good work, the connections and portfolio can make the rest of your career significantly easier. Plus, you're hopefully working on cool stuff.
TobyS95 16y ago
Spoken like someone who is punching the clock at Best Buy. If you are in a technical field that deals with anything of any significance, you will work like this for much less world changing projects. Most of the things you touch has a team of engineers that work like this behind it. It could be everyday things like bringing a subway motor , a glucose meter, or a police scanner to reality. Why? I have seen it. Actually, technical staff that work the front end of development the best work/life balance (note that I didn't say good). It the guys that work out the final kinks at the end in manufacturing or testing that really get the pressure. You or team members may not even believe in the project as you go on the death march. At least it sounds like the staff at Apple believe in the final goal.

borski 16y ago

While I only worked at Apple for about 8 months (started as a summer intern), I can completely echo this. It's never that we _have_ to stay later, it's that we _want_ to. You really have a dedication to the product because you want your customers to love you; that was the overall mindset. With a deadline, that means you'll do almost anything to meet it and succeed. As for the secrecy, you're totally right. I roomed with 3 other interns during the summer and none of us would talk shop, ever. When interviewing for other companies later, nearly all my answers about what I did at Apple were "I wish I could talk to you about that, but the most I can do at this point is talk 'around' it, if you will, since that's an unreleased product." Not at all unlike government secrecy. All that said, it really was a glorious place to work. I miss a lot about it; the seemingly infectious excitement and passion for the products was really driving. I loved being in that environment. :)

ig1 16y ago
And of course if someone doesn't stay later it means they're not dedicated to the product, so obviously aren't suitable for promotion, salary increases, etc.
- borski 16y ago
  No, actually, that wasn't usually how it worked. It was all about performance rather than time spent on-site. If you could get done in 4 hours what took me 8, you would be just as eligible for any promotions as I. Probably more-so, however, since you'd probably have worked 8 hours anyway and gotten twice as much done. ;)
  - ig1 16y ago
    It sounds to me like your saying that if someone wanted to work an 8 hour day, they'd have to match what you do in (say) 12 hours ? i.e. if someone was equally productive (or even 25% more productive), but still produced less than you purely because they worked the scheduled hours, than they'd be less likely to get promotions, etc. ?
    - 16y ago

hyperbovine 16y ago

Glad to hear it's not just me! I've got a couple friends working there too, the 007 shtick gets a bit droll sometimes.

nhangen 16y ago

I don't see how it isn't sustainable if you are loving it? Most people would love a job where they don't need to stay, but want to stay.

loewenskind 16y ago

Does the compensation reflect the working hours? That is, your roomate is working at least 50% more than normal [1], does he make 50% more than people who work normal hours doing similar work? [1] I can't comment on the industry standard because Apple is kind of a hybrid between a software and hardware company.

deleted 16y ago

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