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As a radiologist, I have to know a lot about cellular biology to understand and predict the imaging manifestations of cellular disease. You can’t just delete t

by riahi 8y ago

As a radiologist, I have to know a lot about cellular biology to understand and predict the imaging manifestations of cellular disease. You can’t just delete the baseline foundational knowledge.

treis 8y ago
>As a radiologist, I have to know a lot about cellular biology to understand and predict the imaging manifestations of cellular disease. A given radiologist shouldn't be predicting the imaging manifestation of cellular disease. They should be using their knowledge of how known diseases or conditions appear on scans to diagnose the issue. The people that need to understand things on a deeper level are the ones trying to devise new tests or scans to expand front line radiologists diagnostic abilities.
- natalyarostova 8y ago
  It's pretty wild you're telling a practicing radiologist how they should be doing their job.
  - treis 8y ago
    One of the problems with letting people in a profession set the requirements for that profession is that they exaggerate them to limit competition and increase their earnings. You end up with things like radiologists saying they need to know cellular biology. It's simply ludicrous on its face. Radiology is a particularly egregious case. If it weren't for legal protection the profession would be dramatically different. It's obviously stupid to spend a bunch of time training them to interpret and diagnosis a bunch of different scans. Basic efficiency would be to train Person A to interpret chest X-Rays, person B to do CT scans, Person C for leg X-rays and have them spend all day doing that one thing. Instead, radiologists spend a decade learning how to interpret a hundred different things and spend 1/100 of their time on each of them.
    - assblaster 8y ago
      How do you interpret an image if you don't have an understanding of what is in it? In other words, let's say that a patient has a fever. Chest X-ray was done. High-school educated "radiologist" sees the image. Does he understand the anatomy? The variations of anatomy? Pathological manifestations of potential causes of fever? How to exclude image artifact versus include potential sign of pathology? What about findings that are not related to fever but need to be identified, further characterised and further imaging required for follow-up? What about signs of infectious fluid versus non-infectious fluid like blood or extravasated fluid? What about when the ordering physician wants to discuss the findings with the "radiologist"? Will that "radiologist" actually understand anything that the physician is talking about? There is a role for AI assisting in rapid analysis of radiological studies, however radiologists can never be replaced because AI will never perform to the level of or have the same functions as a physician radiologist.
      - treis 8y ago
        >How do you interpret an image if you don't have an understanding of what is in it? Because you're looking to identify patterns and match them to known ones. To use an analogy, I can teach you to identify statues of Hindu Gods without teaching you anything about Hinduism. For example, to identify Ganesh you need to know that he has an elephant head. Knowing that he has an elephant head because Shiva cut his human head off doesn't really help you. >In other words, let's say that a patient has a fever. Chest X-ray was done. >High-school educated "radiologist" sees the image. Does he understand the anatomy? The variations of anatomy? Pathological manifestations of potential causes of fever? How to exclude image artifact versus include potential sign of pathology? What about findings that are not related to fever but need to be identified, further characterised and further imaging required for follow-up? What about signs of infectious fluid versus non-infectious fluid like blood or extravasated fluid? All of the things you mentioned are things that a radiologist interpreting a chest X-ray needs to know. What you need to explain is why someone interpreting a chest X-ray needs to understand Organic Chemistry. And the vein structure of the leg. And the typical development pattern of a child. And the various mental illnesses a person might have. And interpret a knee MRI. >There is a role for AI assisting in rapid analysis of radiological studies, however radiologists can never be replaced because AI will never perform to the level of or have the same functions as a physician radiologist. No, but I could easily take 10 people, train them each 1/10th of what a radiologist studies, and have them perform just as well as 10 radiologists by routing the right stuff to the right person.
- nradov 8y ago
  The level of aggressive ignorance displayed in comments like this is quite shocking. I'm puzzled as to why engineers and developers think they're qualified to give advice to other professionals in fields where they have no education or experience. What causes that type of hubris?

by riahi 8y ago

As a radiologist, I have to know a lot about cellular biology to understand and predict the imaging manifestations of cellular disease. You can’t just delete the baseline foundational knowledge.

treis 8y ago

>As a radiologist, I have to know a lot about cellular biology to understand and predict the imaging manifestations of cellular disease. A given radiologist shouldn't be predicting the imaging manifestation of cellular disease. They should be using their knowledge of how known diseases or conditions appear on scans to diagnose the issue. The people that need to understand things on a deeper level are the ones trying to devise new tests or scans to expand front line radiologists diagnostic abilities.

natalyarostova 8y ago
It's pretty wild you're telling a practicing radiologist how they should be doing their job.
- treis 8y ago
  One of the problems with letting people in a profession set the requirements for that profession is that they exaggerate them to limit competition and increase their earnings. You end up with things like radiologists saying they need to know cellular biology. It's simply ludicrous on its face. Radiology is a particularly egregious case. If it weren't for legal protection the profession would be dramatically different. It's obviously stupid to spend a bunch of time training them to interpret and diagnosis a bunch of different scans. Basic efficiency would be to train Person A to interpret chest X-Rays, person B to do CT scans, Person C for leg X-rays and have them spend all day doing that one thing. Instead, radiologists spend a decade learning how to interpret a hundred different things and spend 1/100 of their time on each of them.
  - assblaster 8y ago
    How do you interpret an image if you don't have an understanding of what is in it? In other words, let's say that a patient has a fever. Chest X-ray was done. High-school educated "radiologist" sees the image. Does he understand the anatomy? The variations of anatomy? Pathological manifestations of potential causes of fever? How to exclude image artifact versus include potential sign of pathology? What about findings that are not related to fever but need to be identified, further characterised and further imaging required for follow-up? What about signs of infectious fluid versus non-infectious fluid like blood or extravasated fluid? What about when the ordering physician wants to discuss the findings with the "radiologist"? Will that "radiologist" actually understand anything that the physician is talking about? There is a role for AI assisting in rapid analysis of radiological studies, however radiologists can never be replaced because AI will never perform to the level of or have the same functions as a physician radiologist.
    - treis 8y ago
      >How do you interpret an image if you don't have an understanding of what is in it? Because you're looking to identify patterns and match them to known ones. To use an analogy, I can teach you to identify statues of Hindu Gods without teaching you anything about Hinduism. For example, to identify Ganesh you need to know that he has an elephant head. Knowing that he has an elephant head because Shiva cut his human head off doesn't really help you. >In other words, let's say that a patient has a fever. Chest X-ray was done. >High-school educated "radiologist" sees the image. Does he understand the anatomy? The variations of anatomy? Pathological manifestations of potential causes of fever? How to exclude image artifact versus include potential sign of pathology? What about findings that are not related to fever but need to be identified, further characterised and further imaging required for follow-up? What about signs of infectious fluid versus non-infectious fluid like blood or extravasated fluid? All of the things you mentioned are things that a radiologist interpreting a chest X-ray needs to know. What you need to explain is why someone interpreting a chest X-ray needs to understand Organic Chemistry. And the vein structure of the leg. And the typical development pattern of a child. And the various mental illnesses a person might have. And interpret a knee MRI. >There is a role for AI assisting in rapid analysis of radiological studies, however radiologists can never be replaced because AI will never perform to the level of or have the same functions as a physician radiologist. No, but I could easily take 10 people, train them each 1/10th of what a radiologist studies, and have them perform just as well as 10 radiologists by routing the right stuff to the right person.
nradov 8y ago
The level of aggressive ignorance displayed in comments like this is quite shocking. I'm puzzled as to why engineers and developers think they're qualified to give advice to other professionals in fields where they have no education or experience. What causes that type of hubris?