7 ms·

If psilocybin has some success in early clinical trials then companies will begin work on metabolites and similar compounds that purportedly have less side effe

If psilocybin has some success in early clinical trials then companies will begin work on metabolites and similar compounds that purportedly have less side effects. That is what is happening with Ketamine right now.

ada1981 8y ago
What people seem to miss is that it’s the psychedelic experience itself that holds the healing potential. We most likely won’t see a pill derived from mushrooms that cures depression but doesn’t get you high. The altered state of conciousness is the thing.
- johnwyles 8y ago
  I'm not saying you're wrong per se but what evidence do you have that there are no beneficial analogs and triggers for similar biochemical pathways that perhaps are not marked by a substantial or profound classically psychedelic experience?
  - thatcat 8y ago
    It's much harder to prove a negative. What evidence do you have that there are? If you consider the way these drugs must be administered to be effective - with a co requisite therapy session - it seems obvious that the conscious effects are the beneficial ones.
    - neom 8y ago
      There is sufficient evidence for both, and there is probably good reason to split them out (body and mind) and see them as different things that also work combined (body + mind). In this you might compare something like kambo to ayahuasca and ibogaine. They have many similar effects but have different ways of getting there (some more physical some more spiritual ,Kambo is probably not going to help with your childhood abuse, but it may help your high blood pressure, ayahuasca may help you process your childhood abuse and as a result lower your blood pressure.) If you look at something like 2cb vs lsd, lsd is found to be considerably more productive/creative than 2cb at subthreshold doses, but people often experience a much better "therapy trip" on high dose 2cb. Some great books are: The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide- James Fadiman Acid Test - LSD, Ecstasy, and the Power to Heal - Tom Shroder Sacred Knowledge - Psychedelics and Religious Experiences - William Richards
  - ada1981 8y ago
    My understanding is that much of mental illness is caused by unprocessed trauma and the way in which we process trauma is in altered states. This is why various pathways like ayahuasca, mushrooms, LSD, mdma, Holotropic Breathwork, EDMR etc all work from vary different pathways — they all enduce an altered state, in which the nervous system releases the experience and forms new pathways.
    - achileas 8y ago
      Many of those (specifically ayahuasca, psilocybin, and LSD) all work on very similar pathways and structures. MDMA works on different ones and produces are markedly different experience and isn't usually considered a psychedelic.
      - ada1981 8y ago
        And yet, the altered state in a therapeutic setting is the thing that helps.
  - monktastic1 8y ago
    One bit of evidence is that in the JHU studies, improvement correlated strongly with whether the person had a "mystical-type" experience. When you go through an incredibly cathartic experience of remorse and redemption and come out of it a more loving person, it's a good hypothesis that it was the experience that caused the change.
- bdamm 8y ago
  Unclear. I have close family that is having marked and unprecedented success in treating serious depression by microdosing psilocybin below the psychedelic threshold. The result is profound, sustained, and after trying a dozen different approved psychiatrist prescribed drugs to find help can not be a placebo effect as surely any of those would have been just as effective.
  - ada1981 8y ago
    Out of curiosity, have they tried macro-dosing to be ineffective? Ie instead of ongoing microdosing, having a 2-3g experience once or twice. I have very little faith in main stream psychiatric care to provide anything other than blunt palliative options (often with lethal conseuences).
    - bdamm 8y ago
      They have not yet, because we haven't found a way to provide a safe environment for this person to be in that can be sustained long enough to cover the entire experience. Providing safety would include alleviating their responsibilities, which includes child care, so that gets pretty complex.
      - ada1981 8y ago
        Understood. Wishing you an afternoon and the support needed soon. Also really glad you have found relief with microdosing!
  - kristofferR 8y ago
    There isn't a clear threshold in regards to microdosing. You're still getting the psychedelic effect from the psilocybin, just proportionally less.
    - sierdolij 8y ago
      It's uncertain if microdosing a particular ligand has any scientifically-proven evidence of efficacy without studying it. In many instances, it maybe a shared delusion placebo effect and/or socially-reinforced fad.
- sierdolij 8y ago
  No, that's unknowable conjecture without a safe-as-possible double-blind placebo of the relevant, individual ligands under hospital supervision.
  - ada1981 8y ago
    Of course, those studies are certainly underway. And I would bet a non-trivial sum of money that this is the exact result that will be found. Anyone who has significant experience with healing trauma or mental illness with psychedelics has experienced this phenomenon first hand.

ada1981 8y ago

What people seem to miss is that it’s the psychedelic experience itself that holds the healing potential. We most likely won’t see a pill derived from mushrooms that cures depression but doesn’t get you high. The altered state of conciousness is the thing.

johnwyles 8y ago
I'm not saying you're wrong per se but what evidence do you have that there are no beneficial analogs and triggers for similar biochemical pathways that perhaps are not marked by a substantial or profound classically psychedelic experience?
- thatcat 8y ago
  It's much harder to prove a negative. What evidence do you have that there are? If you consider the way these drugs must be administered to be effective - with a co requisite therapy session - it seems obvious that the conscious effects are the beneficial ones.
  - neom 8y ago
    There is sufficient evidence for both, and there is probably good reason to split them out (body and mind) and see them as different things that also work combined (body + mind). In this you might compare something like kambo to ayahuasca and ibogaine. They have many similar effects but have different ways of getting there (some more physical some more spiritual ,Kambo is probably not going to help with your childhood abuse, but it may help your high blood pressure, ayahuasca may help you process your childhood abuse and as a result lower your blood pressure.) If you look at something like 2cb vs lsd, lsd is found to be considerably more productive/creative than 2cb at subthreshold doses, but people often experience a much better "therapy trip" on high dose 2cb. Some great books are: The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide- James Fadiman Acid Test - LSD, Ecstasy, and the Power to Heal - Tom Shroder Sacred Knowledge - Psychedelics and Religious Experiences - William Richards
- ada1981 8y ago
  My understanding is that much of mental illness is caused by unprocessed trauma and the way in which we process trauma is in altered states. This is why various pathways like ayahuasca, mushrooms, LSD, mdma, Holotropic Breathwork, EDMR etc all work from vary different pathways — they all enduce an altered state, in which the nervous system releases the experience and forms new pathways.
  - achileas 8y ago
    Many of those (specifically ayahuasca, psilocybin, and LSD) all work on very similar pathways and structures. MDMA works on different ones and produces are markedly different experience and isn't usually considered a psychedelic.
    - ada1981 8y ago
      And yet, the altered state in a therapeutic setting is the thing that helps.
- monktastic1 8y ago
  One bit of evidence is that in the JHU studies, improvement correlated strongly with whether the person had a "mystical-type" experience. When you go through an incredibly cathartic experience of remorse and redemption and come out of it a more loving person, it's a good hypothesis that it was the experience that caused the change.
bdamm 8y ago
Unclear. I have close family that is having marked and unprecedented success in treating serious depression by microdosing psilocybin below the psychedelic threshold. The result is profound, sustained, and after trying a dozen different approved psychiatrist prescribed drugs to find help can not be a placebo effect as surely any of those would have been just as effective.
- ada1981 8y ago
  Out of curiosity, have they tried macro-dosing to be ineffective? Ie instead of ongoing microdosing, having a 2-3g experience once or twice. I have very little faith in main stream psychiatric care to provide anything other than blunt palliative options (often with lethal conseuences).
  - bdamm 8y ago
    They have not yet, because we haven't found a way to provide a safe environment for this person to be in that can be sustained long enough to cover the entire experience. Providing safety would include alleviating their responsibilities, which includes child care, so that gets pretty complex.
    - ada1981 8y ago
      Understood. Wishing you an afternoon and the support needed soon. Also really glad you have found relief with microdosing!
- kristofferR 8y ago
  There isn't a clear threshold in regards to microdosing. You're still getting the psychedelic effect from the psilocybin, just proportionally less.
  - sierdolij 8y ago
    It's uncertain if microdosing a particular ligand has any scientifically-proven evidence of efficacy without studying it. In many instances, it maybe a shared delusion placebo effect and/or socially-reinforced fad.
sierdolij 8y ago
No, that's unknowable conjecture without a safe-as-possible double-blind placebo of the relevant, individual ligands under hospital supervision.
- ada1981 8y ago
  Of course, those studies are certainly underway. And I would bet a non-trivial sum of money that this is the exact result that will be found. Anyone who has significant experience with healing trauma or mental illness with psychedelics has experienced this phenomenon first hand.