5 ms·

Thanks for highlighting this. To me it seems an important idea that contradicts conventional wisdom, similar in the way that most people over-encourage DRY, bli

Thanks for highlighting this. To me it seems an important idea that contradicts conventional wisdom, similar in the way that most people over-encourage DRY, blind to the fact it increases coupling.

lugg 8y ago
I frequently find myself drastically refactoring code to understand it. I don't commit those changes because it's not worth the effort to justify the cleanup to people who treat these rules as gospel. Apparently me spending half a day reading code is no big deal but cleaning it up is a waste of time. Shrug.
- quietbritishjim 8y ago
  I think the objections to rewriting code are sometimes justified, rather than just blindly following rules. As you said, refactoring code helps you understand it. This means that you can end up feeling like your code is objectively clearer than before you started, but sometimes it's just an illusion caused by the fact that you just (re)wrote it. If there are other people in the company that already understand that functionality, you're disrupting the effort they put into understanding the old version of the code. Combine this with the risk of introducing bugs or missing some obscure bits of functionality, and there is valid reason to object. I find this is particularly common mistake by junior programmers (not saying this applies to you), presumably because they aren't used to reading other people's code. Frustratingly, this is often coupled with an attitude that missing out large chunks of existing user functionality is acceptable if it makes the code a bit simpler. Of course, sometimes rewrites/refactors really are an improvement. Sometimes code really is fragile and confusing, either because of who wrote it or because it has had many small changes tacked on in the easiest places. Or perhaps the last person that understood that code has left the company, so it's OK that you find the code clearer only because you just wrote it! But in any case, it is fair to ask for real justification for a rewrite.
  - logicallee 8y ago
    (Genuine question.) Do you think "small changes" shouldn't be "tacked on in the easiest places"? I'll try to give an example I hope is realistic: One of the heaviest things an application can get is a complete theme system. Suppose you don't have one. It's not a requirement. Adding a theme system when there is none is months of work and might impact basically every line of code that displays anything. So you're not doing it. Now for some exceptional system there is just one case where somewhere you are displaying something under an external widget that doesn't meet its size constraints or whatever - long story short your text is invisible, you want to inverse the font to get it working. You don't have any code like that. Do you think it is OK to add it to the easiest possible place: in this case perhaps you add an optional argument called "need_to_invert_color" (this awkward phrasing tells you it's a hack) to a single function, default it as false, comment it as: //invert the color of the font. This is needed where an external graphing widget with a black background leaks onto our canvas due to not respecting our pixel boundaries, so that our text displays over it. And then where you call comment the same thing, that //currently a bug in the widget code makes the widget leak xyz pixels below its bottom border. As a temporary fix we introduce an argument need_to_invert_color into our display function. As of this writing 3 Jan 2019 we are just using it from here. The correct fix would be for the widget to stop leaking instead, and when that is done white text is unnecessary - and we might not notice. So we start by testing whether the area we will be overlaid over is indeed the wrong color. ETC. In other words a quick hack for a corner case, that doesn't fix the underlying bug (workaround) and even as a hack makes use of something that doesn't exist (a theme system), instead adding and documenting a half-assed thing tacked on.
    - quietbritishjim 8y ago
      Of course this is just my opinion, but in many situations I think tacking one small change on to the easiest place is fine. My comment earlier wasn't meant as a criticism of that practice. It's just I would consider refactoring after this happens multiple times: at some point, all those little tweaks can add up enough that the original design of the "core" code gets lost in the noise. When exactly is the right time can be hard to figure out. Especially because, if enough hacks have accumulated that code really does need a reshuffle, then the job of refactoring is harder, which actually increases the temptation to put it off. But I wouldn't make a big sweeping change just because of one small hack that's a bit ugly.
- z0r 8y ago
  Writing code is hard, so there's nothing wrong with reading it being hard too. (I'm only half kidding).
- zorked 8y ago
  Five people understand the system. You refactor it. Now one person understands the system.
  - Aeolun 8y ago
    Initially the system took 8 hours of reading and 2 days of refactoring to grasp. Now it takes 2 hours. I’ll take that.
- chucksmash 8y ago
  Working Effectively with Legacy Code recommends just this idea. They call it scratch refactoring. Refactor without a lot of forethought to see how the system works, then just throw away your changes but keep your newfound understanding.
  - lugg 8y ago
    This is effectively "it." But I do like to branch off the more useful refactors into their own commits.
- pault 8y ago
  I often see some bit of code, or a dependency in a project that I think is over engineered and too complex and start rewriting; first I get something basic working, then I discover some edge case, then another, and another, and eventually I realize that I have reimplemented the original code. It always makes me feel silly, but at the same time those have been the best learning experiences I've ever had.
  - zozbot123 8y ago
    The proper response to that is to actively document these edge cases (within the original code) so that they don't get missed as the code is maintained in the future.
    - pault 8y ago
      I do, so I can remember how it works when I see it again in six months. :)
- titzer 8y ago
  Take a moment to consider that someone else in your team might actually understand the code in question, and when you rewrite it (and commit), you destroy their knowledge about how it works. Sure, from your perspective, you made the code better, easier to understand. From their perspective, even if they do the code review themselves, they will not understand it as thoroughly as you do, and they will be burdened with both the knowledge of how it used to be, and how it is now. The net result can be negative, and eventually no one understands any code that they didn't refactor in the last ~6 months, because if it's any older than that, someone's rewritten it. Sometimes you gotta sit down and bite the bullet and read and ask questions.
blub 8y ago
Any company that can rely on an ads cash cow and a large, competent engineering team can probably afford to rewrite most of their software periodically. This won't apply to most companies, hence the conventional wisdom.
- yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
  Like most things, it depends. There are happy mediums between rewriting absolutely everything and making the fewest possible changes. This is true and viable in organisations of any size.
- paganel 8y ago
  > team can probably afford to rewrite most of their software periodically I think Google partially does this in order to keep its engineers happy, as you are more happy when you develop something from the ground-up compared to just maintaining something already built. By going down this route those engineers are kept in a “happy state” so there’s less risk of them flying off to other pastures, where they could potentially build the next product that could “kill” Google. Sort of invisible golden hand-cuffs, if you will. I personally find it tremendously wasteful at a societal level but I can see the value of this strategy for Google as a company.
Aeolun 8y ago
Wait, huh? How does DRY increase coupling? I mean, I guess the duplicate code/class is now coupled to the two places that use it, but I have a hard time seeing how that is worse than two duplicate instances of the code.
- yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
  It increases coupling in exactly the way you just described. Sometimes this is beneficial. Sometimes it isn't. My point is — more often than not — conventional wisdom is that DRY is always preferable, whereas the reality is not that simple.
- BeetleB 8y ago
  Here is what I've seen (and been guilty of): Two pieces of code in different parts of the codebase are very similar. They have nothing to do with each other - even semantically. But the code is very similar. So someone thinks this is code duplication and creates a function/class/whatever that both pieces of code can use. Repeat all over the place. Then one day, one of those two places needs custom behavior. I can either change that function/class and create complexity (have to now support two use cases). Or I can stop using that function/class in that place and go back to the old solution. Sometimes, this is quite a lot of work as aggressive "DRY" leads to a fair amount of coupling - there could be a few layers of DRY'd code there to untangle. I put "DRY" in quotes because none of this really is DRY. DRY originally was about requirements - not code. No requirement should show up in multiple places in the code base. In this example, even though the code was almost identical in both places, there was little else common. They dealt with different requirements, for completely different reasons. They should never have been refactored to use a common function/class. These days people keep talking about over-use of DRY, but they're really complaining about overabstraction of disparate code - not the DRY in the requirements sense.
  - erik_seaberg 8y ago
    This gets back to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open%E2%80%93closed_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open%E2%80%93closed_principle. I should be able to override just the behavior I want to change, rather than permanently edit the shared implementation eliminating the behavior you want.

Thanks for highlighting this. To me it seems an important idea that contradicts conventional wisdom, similar in the way that most people over-encourage DRY, blind to the fact it increases coupling.

lugg 8y ago

I frequently find myself drastically refactoring code to understand it. I don't commit those changes because it's not worth the effort to justify the cleanup to people who treat these rules as gospel. Apparently me spending half a day reading code is no big deal but cleaning it up is a waste of time. Shrug.

quietbritishjim 8y ago
I think the objections to rewriting code are sometimes justified, rather than just blindly following rules. As you said, refactoring code helps you understand it. This means that you can end up feeling like your code is objectively clearer than before you started, but sometimes it's just an illusion caused by the fact that you just (re)wrote it. If there are other people in the company that already understand that functionality, you're disrupting the effort they put into understanding the old version of the code. Combine this with the risk of introducing bugs or missing some obscure bits of functionality, and there is valid reason to object. I find this is particularly common mistake by junior programmers (not saying this applies to you), presumably because they aren't used to reading other people's code. Frustratingly, this is often coupled with an attitude that missing out large chunks of existing user functionality is acceptable if it makes the code a bit simpler. Of course, sometimes rewrites/refactors really are an improvement. Sometimes code really is fragile and confusing, either because of who wrote it or because it has had many small changes tacked on in the easiest places. Or perhaps the last person that understood that code has left the company, so it's OK that you find the code clearer only because you just wrote it! But in any case, it is fair to ask for real justification for a rewrite.
- logicallee 8y ago
  (Genuine question.) Do you think "small changes" shouldn't be "tacked on in the easiest places"? I'll try to give an example I hope is realistic: One of the heaviest things an application can get is a complete theme system. Suppose you don't have one. It's not a requirement. Adding a theme system when there is none is months of work and might impact basically every line of code that displays anything. So you're not doing it. Now for some exceptional system there is just one case where somewhere you are displaying something under an external widget that doesn't meet its size constraints or whatever - long story short your text is invisible, you want to inverse the font to get it working. You don't have any code like that. Do you think it is OK to add it to the easiest possible place: in this case perhaps you add an optional argument called "need_to_invert_color" (this awkward phrasing tells you it's a hack) to a single function, default it as false, comment it as: //invert the color of the font. This is needed where an external graphing widget with a black background leaks onto our canvas due to not respecting our pixel boundaries, so that our text displays over it. And then where you call comment the same thing, that //currently a bug in the widget code makes the widget leak xyz pixels below its bottom border. As a temporary fix we introduce an argument need_to_invert_color into our display function. As of this writing 3 Jan 2019 we are just using it from here. The correct fix would be for the widget to stop leaking instead, and when that is done white text is unnecessary - and we might not notice. So we start by testing whether the area we will be overlaid over is indeed the wrong color. ETC. In other words a quick hack for a corner case, that doesn't fix the underlying bug (workaround) and even as a hack makes use of something that doesn't exist (a theme system), instead adding and documenting a half-assed thing tacked on.
  - quietbritishjim 8y ago
    Of course this is just my opinion, but in many situations I think tacking one small change on to the easiest place is fine. My comment earlier wasn't meant as a criticism of that practice. It's just I would consider refactoring after this happens multiple times: at some point, all those little tweaks can add up enough that the original design of the "core" code gets lost in the noise. When exactly is the right time can be hard to figure out. Especially because, if enough hacks have accumulated that code really does need a reshuffle, then the job of refactoring is harder, which actually increases the temptation to put it off. But I wouldn't make a big sweeping change just because of one small hack that's a bit ugly.
z0r 8y ago
Writing code is hard, so there's nothing wrong with reading it being hard too. (I'm only half kidding).
zorked 8y ago
Five people understand the system. You refactor it. Now one person understands the system.
- Aeolun 8y ago
  Initially the system took 8 hours of reading and 2 days of refactoring to grasp. Now it takes 2 hours. I’ll take that.
chucksmash 8y ago
Working Effectively with Legacy Code recommends just this idea. They call it scratch refactoring. Refactor without a lot of forethought to see how the system works, then just throw away your changes but keep your newfound understanding.
- lugg 8y ago
  This is effectively "it." But I do like to branch off the more useful refactors into their own commits.
pault 8y ago
I often see some bit of code, or a dependency in a project that I think is over engineered and too complex and start rewriting; first I get something basic working, then I discover some edge case, then another, and another, and eventually I realize that I have reimplemented the original code. It always makes me feel silly, but at the same time those have been the best learning experiences I've ever had.
- zozbot123 8y ago
  The proper response to that is to actively document these edge cases (within the original code) so that they don't get missed as the code is maintained in the future.
  - pault 8y ago
    I do, so I can remember how it works when I see it again in six months. :)
titzer 8y ago
Take a moment to consider that someone else in your team might actually understand the code in question, and when you rewrite it (and commit), you destroy their knowledge about how it works. Sure, from your perspective, you made the code better, easier to understand. From their perspective, even if they do the code review themselves, they will not understand it as thoroughly as you do, and they will be burdened with both the knowledge of how it used to be, and how it is now. The net result can be negative, and eventually no one understands any code that they didn't refactor in the last ~6 months, because if it's any older than that, someone's rewritten it. Sometimes you gotta sit down and bite the bullet and read and ask questions.

blub 8y ago

Any company that can rely on an ads cash cow and a large, competent engineering team can probably afford to rewrite most of their software periodically. This won't apply to most companies, hence the conventional wisdom.

yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
Like most things, it depends. There are happy mediums between rewriting absolutely everything and making the fewest possible changes. This is true and viable in organisations of any size.
paganel 8y ago
> team can probably afford to rewrite most of their software periodically I think Google partially does this in order to keep its engineers happy, as you are more happy when you develop something from the ground-up compared to just maintaining something already built. By going down this route those engineers are kept in a “happy state” so there’s less risk of them flying off to other pastures, where they could potentially build the next product that could “kill” Google. Sort of invisible golden hand-cuffs, if you will. I personally find it tremendously wasteful at a societal level but I can see the value of this strategy for Google as a company.

Aeolun 8y ago

Wait, huh? How does DRY increase coupling? I mean, I guess the duplicate code/class is now coupled to the two places that use it, but I have a hard time seeing how that is worse than two duplicate instances of the code.

yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
It increases coupling in exactly the way you just described. Sometimes this is beneficial. Sometimes it isn't. My point is — more often than not — conventional wisdom is that DRY is always preferable, whereas the reality is not that simple.
BeetleB 8y ago
Here is what I've seen (and been guilty of): Two pieces of code in different parts of the codebase are very similar. They have nothing to do with each other - even semantically. But the code is very similar. So someone thinks this is code duplication and creates a function/class/whatever that both pieces of code can use. Repeat all over the place. Then one day, one of those two places needs custom behavior. I can either change that function/class and create complexity (have to now support two use cases). Or I can stop using that function/class in that place and go back to the old solution. Sometimes, this is quite a lot of work as aggressive "DRY" leads to a fair amount of coupling - there could be a few layers of DRY'd code there to untangle. I put "DRY" in quotes because none of this really is DRY. DRY originally was about requirements - not code. No requirement should show up in multiple places in the code base. In this example, even though the code was almost identical in both places, there was little else common. They dealt with different requirements, for completely different reasons. They should never have been refactored to use a common function/class. These days people keep talking about over-use of DRY, but they're really complaining about overabstraction of disparate code - not the DRY in the requirements sense.
- erik_seaberg 8y ago
  This gets back to the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open%E2%80%93closed_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open%E2%80%93closed_principle. I should be able to override just the behavior I want to change, rather than permanently edit the shared implementation eliminating the behavior you want.