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I see people in this thread surprised that this is happening in Singapore, a “modern” country. Singapore is certainly wealthy, the population is highly educated

• tzjmetron 8y ago
  The "West" actually enjoys much less freedom than the rest of the world. It's only an illusion of democracy and personal freedom.
• oth001 8y ago
  Similar to America where Republicans and Democrats are really no different from each other in the grand scheme of things.
  • jopsen 8y ago
    Wow, Not true, it looks so from where you're sitting. But politics change a lot over time. It's slow moving and in a two party system, you are unlikely to see big differences between either side. That said, the world would have looked differently had Hilary won in 2016.
    • spuz 8y ago
      Or Gore in 2001
      • codetrotter 8y ago
        2000
    • jessaustin 8y ago
      Syria would have looked different, that's for sure.
      • jessaustin 8y ago
        (i.e., more like Libya looks now)
  • mikeash 8y ago
    For example, they both want to dismantle social security, move away from anything resembling universal health care, shut down immigration from non-white countries, cut taxes, and jack up military spending. Wait a minute....
    • throwaway7312 8y ago
      Open borders / illegal immigration from poor / brown countries is a Republican position. They've pushed it since before Reagan's amnesty to benefit corporate special interests. [1] Democrats are late to that game, but now both parties agree: more cheap immigrants for their corporate masters. The Republican party vehemently opposed Donald Trump during the elections of 2015/6 and throughout his first year in office in large part due to his ambivalence toward immigration. There are some opposed to mass immigration among the elected officials of both parties (growing among the Republicans, shrinking among the Democrats), but they remain a minority. Never mind that large majorities of both Republican and Democrat electorates want less immigration [2]... the corporate sponsors want more, thus so do the representatives. This is how politics works in the United States. The Parties put on a puff show of differing over hot button social issues that whip the electorate into a frenzy. Meanwhile the elected representatives of both parties go to great lengths to satisfy their corporate and international donors, who are the same for the representatives of both parties. The plebes fight over the kabuki theater of climate change and transsexual bathrooms while the rulers work together on issues of substance without the interference or awareness of the common man. Perhaps it's better that way? Edward Bernays certainly thought so. [3] [1] https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2018/11/the-left-case-against-open-borders/ https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2018/11/the-left-case-aga... [2] http://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Final_HHP_Jan2018-Refield_RegisteredVoters_XTab.pdf http://harvardharrispoll.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Fina... [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ3RzGoQC4s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ3RzGoQC4s
  • eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
    This tired and ignorant take is so frustrating to continue to see, especially after the Trump win.
• chillacy 8y ago
  “Which is great” is an understatement. Looking at the other southeast Asian all the countries in ASEAN one starts to realize that Singapore could have been a lot worse off. Instead the GDP per capita is comparable to the United States, and crime is much lower. LKY strikes me as both highly intelligent and pragmatic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8GwmsLXOx8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8GwmsLXOx8 But I guess only time will tell if the system is as good as the man himself. If I had to guess, I’m skeptical.
  • cinquemb 8y ago
    > Looking at the other southeast Asian all the countries in ASEAN one starts to realize that Singapore could have been a lot worse off. I find this very funny in reality because as someone from the US living in SE asia for nearly 4 years, I pretty much prefer everywhere else in SE asia than Singapore, though I guess if you look at from a monetary standpoint I can understand.
    • ponyfleisch 8y ago
      why?
      • cinquemb 8y ago
        Over regulated daily life (though very well run) combined with being very culturally bland automaton like outside of very few pockets, mixed with Israeli militarism applied to its own people, just doesn't feel very welcoming compared to say Thailand, Malaysia or Indonesia. Some of my wife's family has lived there and Indonesia for a while, and it is agreed that out of all the places in SE asia, it is a good place to make money and potentially for schooling when young, they plan on moving when retiring.
        • ponyfleisch 8y ago
          Fair enough, but every city in malaysia feels like post apocalyptic singapore, infrastructure wise. Indonesia - not much quality of life overall.
• anvandare 8y ago
  >that one Dictator in a million Also called an enlightened despot; In the Eastern -Chinese Legalism tradition- a 明君 "míngjūn". There have been instances of them throughout history. But like you said, the problem is usually what happens once the ruler is gone. It's never a (long-term) good idea to have the success of a group dependant on a single person. A political system that produces mediocre-but-stable success (over several generations) seems preferable to one that produces a superior-but-brief success.
  • baybal2 8y ago
    >In the Eastern -Chinese Legalism tradition- Oh my, can I ask you where did you pick that up? It feels to me that an average Western person nowadays has been taught more of that stuff than a well studied Chinese.
    • threatofrain 8y ago
      You’re assuming this person isn’t Chinese?
      • baybal2 8y ago
        I do. I can not imagine an educated Chinese person these days going at that, moreover somebody from mainland China who is not a party member.
        • ABCLAW 8y ago
          Not the poster you're replying to, but an examination of Legalism was presented in both law schools I attended. Additionally, I know it is also addressed in East Asian studies faculties (with additional historical context above the legal philosophy aspect of it, albeit with less emphasis on the functional qualities).
    • anvandare 8y ago
      Picked it up long ago in a class on Eastern Philosophy. Given the vastness, variety, and history of Asia it barely covered 1% of it all, of course, so I only have a rough overview of the main traditions.
• rjsw 8y ago
  The current leader is Lee Kuan Yew's son.
• rishabhd 8y ago
  Not surprised, William Gibson dubbed Singapore as "Disneyland with the Death Penalty" in his seminal article [1] on wired. That was true in 1993, that is still true now (can also relate since a lot of friends and family are living there). [1] https://www.wired.com/1993/04/gibson-2/ https://www.wired.com/1993/04/gibson-2/ edit: corrected spelling mistake
• avar 8y ago
  > Surely a de facto dictatorship like this shouldn’t be so wealthy and successful[...] It's also worth noting that the entirety of Singapore just barely exceeds the area enclosed by Washington DC's beltway. Whatever their form of government, small city states are always going to be able to avoid many of the pitfalls of larger countries. There's effectively only one level of government to deal with, and the despot is always going to live down the road from you and need to use the same public services as you, so you don't get the sort of disconnect e.g. Rome or the British Empire had from its provinces or overseas holdings.
  • baybal2 8y ago
    The better comparison for the nation should be Luxembourg, and Andorra, not other Asian countries. > Whatever their form of government, small city states are always going to be able to avoid many of the pitfalls of larger countries. There's effectively only one level of government to deal with, and the despot is always going to live down the road from you and need to use the same public services as you, so you don't get the sort of disconnect e.g. Rome or the British Empire had from its provinces or overseas holdings. Recently, I also heard the opinion that another country that can be compared to Sing is Kazakhstan... wait? The comparison is not so ridiculous if you go through with it: ... it is not a city state, but you can say that it is a "two city state." Besides Astana, and Almaty, the nation is effectively a post-soviet wasteland. ... LKY, just as Kazakh president was a socialist and nationalist early on, and of a very radical kind. ... LKY, just as Kazakh president purged every socialist and nationalist the moment he got a nation for himself. ... aside from elites living in ghettos for the rich, the ordinary population is pressed against the wall by low median income. ... to a very big extend, the state gives just enough of handouts to the masses to prevent them from rioting. This way, both Kazakhstan and Singapore can be called a de-facto, but not de-jure socialist states. ... both countries' economies are one trick ponies, despite of decades of dramatic efforts to change that. ... both countries spend lavishly on clearing up their image abroad, but the general populace of both countries can't disagree more with their respective countries popular image. The biggest noticeable difference is of course that Singapore is cosy with the West, and Kazakhstan isn't.
    • 8y ago
• ed_balls 8y ago
  Is it really 1 in a million? There are other pseudo democracies that are doing well e.g. Liechtenstein
  • rsynnott 8y ago
    While it has problems, Liechtenstein is much closer to a normal democracy than Singapore (At least these days). Currently, four parties have seats, with no party having an absolute majority.
    • javagram 8y ago
      Didn’t the prince win a referendum to give him real monarchical powers though? The BBC summary from 2003 says “The people of Liechtenstein have voted to make their prince an absolute monarch again.” Although this description may be a bit exaggerated. I assume the parent comment is in reference to the prince, not the parliament.
• dorian-graph 8y ago
  > Surely a de facto dictatorship like this shouldn’t be so wealthy and successful. Turns out Lee Kuan Yew is that one Dictator in a million who managed to do pretty much everything right. This made me think of some scripture. > Nevertheless, if it were possible that ye could always have just men to be your kings it would be well for you to have a king. (Mosiah 23:8) The preceding verse talks about how everyone should be equal ("one man shall not think himself above another") and the following verse talks about the effects of a bad king ("But remember the ainiquity of king Noah and his priests;")
  • deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
• api 8y ago
  It constantly shocks me how many hackers worship Singapore. I know many. I mean it's not anywhere close to the worst place. It has a good economy and better rule of (incredibly strict) law than many. But I just find it shocking to see it held up as a near utopia and see hacker friends of mine sharing glitzy Singapore propaganda videos on Facebook.
  • SllX 8y ago
    To the type of person that dreams of living in a small space with little more than a laptop and a remote job, with all the necessary infrastructure for life externalized, Singapore looks pretty appealing for basically all the reasons you stated. Good economy, but also good food which matters when you don’t plan to cook for yourself. Good transit infrastructure going anywhere you need or desire to go, so you don’t have to have a car. One level of government, so reduced complexity dealing with all those annoying things that hackers think are stupid and dumb, like taxes. Only thing it is really missing is the kind of critical mass of hackers that would make it into Y Combinator in City-State form.
  • frenchy 8y ago
    How come you call your fiend a hacker? Ever since the late 90's the term has largely been co-opted by the "iamverysmart" type of people.
    • api 8y ago
      Thanks. I've seen that too but never had a fitting term.
• PurpleBoxDragon 8y ago
  I don't think the issue is that 'good' dictators are so rare (one in a million), but that they are rare enough that two back to back is extremely rare and three back to back is beyond hope, even if each dictator tries their best to train up their replacement. As such the real test of these systems is how they fair after the original dictator is gone. Singapore is currently in the middle of their test and the grade won't be seen for a while.
  • chrchang523 8y ago
    Even consecutive good dictators aren't that rare--Rome had the "Five Good Emperors" after all--but a single bad one can be enough to wreck the polity. Rome did recover from Nero... but it never really did from Commodus.
• tootie 8y ago
  It's not just that it's wealthy, the people are pretty free there. I visited recently and there's nothing there that indicates it's anything other than a first-world democracy. Media and internet are not censored. It's socially conservative compared to Western Europe or the US, but not draconian at all. The authoritarian streak is there, but it's not pervasive like China.
  • denzil_correa 8y ago
    > Media and internet are not censored. Singapore has strong censorship mechanisms for the media and Internet. It ranks 151 on the Freedom of Press Index [0]. [0] https://rsf.org/en/singapore https://rsf.org/en/singapore
    • tootie 8y ago
      What I meant is that they don't firewall the entire internet the way China does. You can read any international news or social media. Their censorship regime is purely domestic.
      • ponyfleisch 8y ago
        > Their censorship regime is purely domestic. They block: -pornography -ashley madison -an admittedly very questionable "news" site targeted at Singapore but operated from the outside Further, the sale of malaysian newspapers is banned, as is private ownership of satellite TV equipment.
• rayiner 8y ago
  This is a good point. Free societies don’t arise from education and wealth, but rather peoples’ culture. US GDP per capita in 1870 was about $3,000 in today’s dollars, comparable to Syria. Most African countries have a higher ratio of primary school enrollment today than the US did then. There is a very odd conceit among Americans. We believe our culture is universal, which causes us to devalue it and asset culture doesn’t matter. We assume the natural outcome of education and economic development worldwide will be western-style individualist free societies, so there is no need to protect western culture from globalism.
• mempko 8y ago
  It clearly wasn't right for the guy doing a skype call. Stalin also substantially grew the economy of the USSR. US economy grew with the slave trade. Maybe using economic gains as an argument for what is "good" is a poor argument.
• tim333 8y ago
  >Every election since 1965 has been won by the same party hence "de facto dictatorship" It could alternatively be that the people are reasonably happy with their levels of peace and prosperity and see no need to change the government.
• sonnyblarney 8y ago
  Singapore and Hong Kong have a unique position in that they have an established bureaucracy, trade law, and international banking infrastructure - thanks to the British. Because they are tiny islands of stability and 'rule of commercial law' in a sea of political and economic instability ... they essentially have a powerful export industry, one that also relies on political stability. Without that wealth, I think the leaders would be goners. People are willing to put up with a lot so long as they are gaining wealth, the rules are not so harsh, and there is the perception of rule of law (i.e. no bribery). Not to inflame the anti-Imperialists :) but I wonder where Singapore would be were they to have a (elected?) Governor from the UK instead of a 'Dictator'. Especially since there is no such thing really as a 'native Singaporean' (i.e. when the British took over it was almost an empty plot) and this is more like a trading post than a colony, it really does question the classical late 20th century narrative views of Imperialism. I suggest that at very least, this guy could be having his little Skype meeting. But maybe the streets wouldn't be quite so clean?
• eric24234 8y ago
  Fun Fact. Lee Kuan Yew was a computer scientist before becoming politican and coded solving sudoku and shared his code over github also mentioned he wanted to learn haskell. Looks like computer scientists would make great politican's once elected but getting elected requires a different set of skills, luckily for Lee Kuan his father paved the way before him.
  • dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Fun Fact. Lee Kuan Yew was a computer scientist before becoming politican No, he wasn't. He was a lawyer with an undergraduate degree in economics. The closest that gets to being true is that his son, Lee Hsien Long, got a B.A. in Mathematics and Diploma (essentially an M.S.) in Computer Science before getting a Master of Public Administration. His work history immediately after getting the CS degree was as a military officer with a meteoric career path which appears to have been in field command and operations and general staff positions; he does not appear to ever have been a working computer scientist. > Looks like computer scientists would make great politican's once elected but getting elected That generalization goes far beyond what the single example you seem to rely on would support even if it were accurately described.