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This is an integral part of a driving exam in the Netherlands. You are drilled to look over the shoulder for literally every maneuver (lane switch, turn, etc.)

by tinbad 8y ago

This is an integral part of a driving exam in the Netherlands. You are drilled to look over the shoulder for literally every maneuver (lane switch, turn, etc.) and if you fail to do it even once during the driving exam you will get a fail. In other news: driving test in the US is a complete joke.

deleted 8y ago
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deleted 8y ago
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wcarron 8y ago
In the US, this is also part of the driving exam. However, it is not an automatic failure on its own. I myself failed to do it once, on the test for turning right after crossing through a bicycle lane on my right. Every other maneuver, I checked over my shoulder. Felt bad because I used to commute via bicycle and it was...well, a little ironic that I messed up there of all places. Agreed, though. The US driving test is pathetic.
- ams6110 8y ago
  The bike lane on the right scenario is just stupidity. In what other context is it permitted to turn right across another straight-ahead lane to the right? When I turn right and there is a bike lane to my right, I pull into the bike lane first so nobody can pass me.
  - Johnny555 8y ago
    Where else would you put it? If you put it on the left, then bikes are going to have to cross the car's path to get in/out of the bike lane. So either way, cars and bikes will be merging past each other. However, in California, cars are not supposed to "turn right across another straight-ahead lane to the right", they are supposed to merge safely into the bike lane and turn right from the bike lane, letting any bikes behind pass the car on the left. https://sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-and-right-turns/ https://sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-and-right-turns/
    - u801e 8y ago
      > Where else would you put it? Just have the cyclist ride in the right-most lane available for traffic. Then there are no crossing movements to deal with. Cars making a right turn will either be directly ahead of the cyclist or directly behind the cyclist.
      - Johnny555 8y ago
        Does that really solve the problem of cars turning to the right in front of cyclists? Seems like the same motorist that would pass the cyclist in the bike lane and turn right in front of him, would also pass the cyclist in the roadway and turn right in front of him.
        u801e 8y ago
        In my experience, it does if one rides in a way to take up the entire lane. Many motorists don't perceive bike lanes as actual lanes of traffic they have to yield to when making turning movements. But they will do so for general purpose lanes.
- brianpgordon 8y ago
  There's no such thing as a "US driving test." There's a separate driving test with separate standards for each one of the states and territories and DC.
  - wcarron 8y ago
    Do you not think I know this? Sometimes less precision for the sake of flowing conversation is worth it. HN can be absurdly pedantic some days.
    - brianpgordon 8y ago
      So why are you making a sweeping claim about all US drivers tests, given that you only took one of them? The one you took was clearly bad. The process I went through in Maryland is apparently one of the tougher ones. 30 classroom hours, 6 hours one-on-one with an instructor, 50 hours daytime driving with an older licensed driver, 10 hours nighttime driving, and then you can take the written and driving tests (which require you to parallel park). After that you can drive on your own but still can't have any non-adult passengers and can't drive past midnight or your license is suspended for a year. After 18 months of driving with no moving violations and no other criminal convictions, you finally get a real driver's license. The whole process takes a couple of years.
oliveshell 8y ago
For what it’s worth, it’s like that in much of the U.S. too— at least in my state (North Carolina), you’ll certainly fail the test if you change lanes without checking your blind spot. Driving tests vary state to state, though. And I agree with you that overall, driver education in the U.S. is woeful. I didn’t even have to parallel park for mine! Meanwhile Scandinavians have to prove they can recover from a slide to even get a license.
- Loughla 8y ago
  I think it's about context. Scandinavians have snow and Ice, so it's more likely they'll skid. I never had to parallel park, either, for my test, but I also will never parallel park unless I travel 4+ hours away from my home. I did have to prove I could control/stop a skid on gravel, and make a decision on whether to pull onto the soft shoulder or pass or stop or whatever on a narrow lane. Because there is much gravel and huge machinery moving around here on back roads.
  - jdietrich 8y ago
    >Scandinavians have snow and ice, so it's more likely they'll skid. A lot of the US has snow and ice too. Many areas of the south have considerable issues with poor traction. Heavy rainfall after a long dry spell typically disturbs the accumulated contamination on the road surface, creating a sudden and drastic reduction in friction. Dust deposited by desert winds can be almost as slippery as ice. The infrequency of these conditions mean they pose a particular hazard, because drivers lack experience in dealing with them.
- mstade 8y ago
  > Meanwhile Scandinavians have to prove they can recover from a slide to even get a license. Not entirely accurate, at least not when I did it. You do have to go take the slide test, otherwise you're not actually eligible for even taking the driving test. The slide test isn't so much a test though, but more of a forced (albeit very fun) experience to get you to experience first hand what it's like to hit a patch of ice or pool of water and all of a sudden lose all traction. It used to be a way to teach people to simulate ABS brakes as well, but I think nowadays that might be less relevant since pretty any car has them. If you took the test in the summer time the sliding was simulated by some pretty interesting contraption that had wheels that would just point in whatever direction you where going, and at the instructors command would lift the car of the ground to remove traction. Somewhat like suddenly putting the car in a shopping cart at full speed. It's a lot of fun, when done in a controlled environment! I wonder if it's possible to retake this test every year or so. As it stands you have to renew the license every ten years, but you never have to take another test once you have it. You just send in a new photo basically. I can tell that I'm most likely a worse driver now than I used to be, at least in some situations, and I don't really keep up with changes in traffic regulations. (Signaling requirements in roundabouts have changed apparently, I had no idea.) Sometimes I think maybe we should have a mandated refresher course every few years, with another slide test refresher as well, just to keep up with things. Modern cars are basically sci-fi space ships now I feel, half the time I wonder if I'd even be able to drive with all the assistive technology that's in there..
UI_at_80x24 8y ago
Same in Canada (Ontario).
mroche 8y ago
> In other news: driving test in the US is a complete joke. Not in all places. It’s highly dependent on who’s proctoring the exam. Some tests are administered by police officers and those can be extremely strict. Other times you get seriously generous people, and that needs to be fixed. Someone I know was the last test of the day for a proctor and they drove over a curb on a turn and still passed. There were quite a few of us baffled by this. Location also depends on what gets tested. Here in MA pretty much everything gets tested (turn types, merging, all forms of parking, etc) whereas some neighboring states don’t test parallel parking. In the training program I was at, turning your head was repeatedly drilled-in in every driving/observation session. Making sure you mirrors were set up for optimal maximum coverage was also tested. There was no shortage of not-ending-well stories related to blind spots and not checking all sides repeatedly.
baddox 8y ago
Then again, in my US driving test I was penalized (I still passed the test) for not looking over my shoulder before one lane change. It was a two-lane one-way road with zero traffic. There's no way a car could've gotten there without me seeing it in my mirrors unless it had been dropped from the air into my blind spot. I'm definitely not still bitter.
- jacobolus 8y ago
  In my California driver test, I was penalized for not looking over my shoulder dramatically enough (a slight head turn and a glance over my shoulder out the side window was not sufficient apparently) when switching into a left turn lane which was carved out of the median island and couldn’t possibly have had anyone driving up to the left.
- kazinator 8y ago
  I've had plenty of moments in my 33 years as a driver where a vehicle dropped out of the sky and into my blind spot; they just do that! The problem is that your attention isn't riveted on the mirrors at all times. If you have been sternly monitoring the mirrors in the previous fraction of a minute, then such a hypothesis does hold. In road tests, you have to do everything by the book, though. They want to see that you've developed the habit of checking. The habit will save you that time when your don't-have-to-do-it hypothesis happens to have a flaw.
  - baddox 8y ago
    > The problem is that your attention isn't riveted on the mirrors at all times. Well, sure, no one is going to be perfect, but similarly, no one is going to always check over their shoulder. > In road tests, you have to do everything by the book, though. Of course. I expect proctors to do things by the book. That's easier and more consistent than trusting each proctor's judgment. My complaints about the test methodology were in jest, but I do think what I did was not in any way unsafe.
    - wahern 8y ago
mariojv 8y ago
In some states, yes. In Texas, I know of several people who didn't even have to take a practical driving test - just a written exam. There used to be an exemption from the practical driving test if you had a licensed parent teach their child under 18 to drive.
lhorie 8y ago
I did a driving test in Toronto and one in San Francisco. In Toronto, failing to shoulder check once wouldn't normally be an auto-fail in the same way that blowing a stop sign would, because most maneuvers are evaluated three times. If you fail to do it all three times, then that's a strike. In San Francisco, we only did a few turns and that was it. Not even any form of parking or three point turns.
amatecha 8y ago
Same here in BC, Canada, you will fail your road test if you don't shoulder-check on lane changes and even turns
8ytecoder 8y ago
That's not true. My driving inspector watched for it and actually commended me at the end. There are also so many other things that he noticed and appreciated/warned me about that I see drivers not doing every single day - indicators, not switching lanes in an intersection (immediate fail), blocking an intersection, not cruising through bike lane, taking a right turn as close to the curb as possible, stop & look for pedestrians before turning right on red, look twice for pedestrians before making a turn and on and on. I don't see most drivers following any of it.
paganel 8y ago
> You are drilled to look over the shoulder for literally every maneuver (lane switch, turn, etc.) It's not the recommended practice in Romania, you're supposed to only rely on your side-mirrors and partly on your rear-view mirror without completely turning your head from the direction you're going (i.e. forward). I'd say that this is the better solution for Bucharest's streets, where there's a much bigger chance of a pedestrian suddenly hopping in front of your car from between two parked cars on the side of the road, and as such it's better for the driver to almost always be attentive at what's in front of the car compared to what's on his/her sides.
InitialLastName 8y ago
I failed my (US) driver's test because, while I looked over my shoulder to check my blind spot, the proctor judged that the window was too fogged up for me to be able to see. Granted, I should have known better how to work the defrost function in the car.

by tinbad 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

wcarron 8y ago

In the US, this is also part of the driving exam. However, it is not an automatic failure on its own. I myself failed to do it once, on the test for turning right after crossing through a bicycle lane on my right. Every other maneuver, I checked over my shoulder. Felt bad because I used to commute via bicycle and it was...well, a little ironic that I messed up there of all places. Agreed, though. The US driving test is pathetic.

ams6110 8y ago
The bike lane on the right scenario is just stupidity. In what other context is it permitted to turn right across another straight-ahead lane to the right? When I turn right and there is a bike lane to my right, I pull into the bike lane first so nobody can pass me.
- Johnny555 8y ago
  Where else would you put it? If you put it on the left, then bikes are going to have to cross the car's path to get in/out of the bike lane. So either way, cars and bikes will be merging past each other. However, in California, cars are not supposed to "turn right across another straight-ahead lane to the right", they are supposed to merge safely into the bike lane and turn right from the bike lane, letting any bikes behind pass the car on the left. https://sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-and-right-turns/ https://sfbike.org/news/bike-lanes-and-right-turns/
  - u801e 8y ago
    > Where else would you put it? Just have the cyclist ride in the right-most lane available for traffic. Then there are no crossing movements to deal with. Cars making a right turn will either be directly ahead of the cyclist or directly behind the cyclist.
    - Johnny555 8y ago
      Does that really solve the problem of cars turning to the right in front of cyclists? Seems like the same motorist that would pass the cyclist in the bike lane and turn right in front of him, would also pass the cyclist in the roadway and turn right in front of him.
      - u801e 8y ago
        In my experience, it does if one rides in a way to take up the entire lane. Many motorists don't perceive bike lanes as actual lanes of traffic they have to yield to when making turning movements. But they will do so for general purpose lanes.
brianpgordon 8y ago
There's no such thing as a "US driving test." There's a separate driving test with separate standards for each one of the states and territories and DC.
- wcarron 8y ago
  Do you not think I know this? Sometimes less precision for the sake of flowing conversation is worth it. HN can be absurdly pedantic some days.
  - brianpgordon 8y ago
    So why are you making a sweeping claim about all US drivers tests, given that you only took one of them? The one you took was clearly bad. The process I went through in Maryland is apparently one of the tougher ones. 30 classroom hours, 6 hours one-on-one with an instructor, 50 hours daytime driving with an older licensed driver, 10 hours nighttime driving, and then you can take the written and driving tests (which require you to parallel park). After that you can drive on your own but still can't have any non-adult passengers and can't drive past midnight or your license is suspended for a year. After 18 months of driving with no moving violations and no other criminal convictions, you finally get a real driver's license. The whole process takes a couple of years.

oliveshell 8y ago

For what it’s worth, it’s like that in much of the U.S. too— at least in my state (North Carolina), you’ll certainly fail the test if you change lanes without checking your blind spot. Driving tests vary state to state, though. And I agree with you that overall, driver education in the U.S. is woeful. I didn’t even have to parallel park for mine! Meanwhile Scandinavians have to prove they can recover from a slide to even get a license.

Loughla 8y ago
I think it's about context. Scandinavians have snow and Ice, so it's more likely they'll skid. I never had to parallel park, either, for my test, but I also will never parallel park unless I travel 4+ hours away from my home. I did have to prove I could control/stop a skid on gravel, and make a decision on whether to pull onto the soft shoulder or pass or stop or whatever on a narrow lane. Because there is much gravel and huge machinery moving around here on back roads.
- jdietrich 8y ago
  >Scandinavians have snow and ice, so it's more likely they'll skid. A lot of the US has snow and ice too. Many areas of the south have considerable issues with poor traction. Heavy rainfall after a long dry spell typically disturbs the accumulated contamination on the road surface, creating a sudden and drastic reduction in friction. Dust deposited by desert winds can be almost as slippery as ice. The infrequency of these conditions mean they pose a particular hazard, because drivers lack experience in dealing with them.
mstade 8y ago
> Meanwhile Scandinavians have to prove they can recover from a slide to even get a license. Not entirely accurate, at least not when I did it. You do have to go take the slide test, otherwise you're not actually eligible for even taking the driving test. The slide test isn't so much a test though, but more of a forced (albeit very fun) experience to get you to experience first hand what it's like to hit a patch of ice or pool of water and all of a sudden lose all traction. It used to be a way to teach people to simulate ABS brakes as well, but I think nowadays that might be less relevant since pretty any car has them. If you took the test in the summer time the sliding was simulated by some pretty interesting contraption that had wheels that would just point in whatever direction you where going, and at the instructors command would lift the car of the ground to remove traction. Somewhat like suddenly putting the car in a shopping cart at full speed. It's a lot of fun, when done in a controlled environment! I wonder if it's possible to retake this test every year or so. As it stands you have to renew the license every ten years, but you never have to take another test once you have it. You just send in a new photo basically. I can tell that I'm most likely a worse driver now than I used to be, at least in some situations, and I don't really keep up with changes in traffic regulations. (Signaling requirements in roundabouts have changed apparently, I had no idea.) Sometimes I think maybe we should have a mandated refresher course every few years, with another slide test refresher as well, just to keep up with things. Modern cars are basically sci-fi space ships now I feel, half the time I wonder if I'd even be able to drive with all the assistive technology that's in there..

UI_at_80x24 8y ago

Same in Canada (Ontario).

mroche 8y ago

> In other news: driving test in the US is a complete joke. Not in all places. It’s highly dependent on who’s proctoring the exam. Some tests are administered by police officers and those can be extremely strict. Other times you get seriously generous people, and that needs to be fixed. Someone I know was the last test of the day for a proctor and they drove over a curb on a turn and still passed. There were quite a few of us baffled by this. Location also depends on what gets tested. Here in MA pretty much everything gets tested (turn types, merging, all forms of parking, etc) whereas some neighboring states don’t test parallel parking. In the training program I was at, turning your head was repeatedly drilled-in in every driving/observation session. Making sure you mirrors were set up for optimal maximum coverage was also tested. There was no shortage of not-ending-well stories related to blind spots and not checking all sides repeatedly.

baddox 8y ago

Then again, in my US driving test I was penalized (I still passed the test) for not looking over my shoulder before one lane change. It was a two-lane one-way road with zero traffic. There's no way a car could've gotten there without me seeing it in my mirrors unless it had been dropped from the air into my blind spot. I'm definitely not still bitter.

jacobolus 8y ago
In my California driver test, I was penalized for not looking over my shoulder dramatically enough (a slight head turn and a glance over my shoulder out the side window was not sufficient apparently) when switching into a left turn lane which was carved out of the median island and couldn’t possibly have had anyone driving up to the left.
kazinator 8y ago
I've had plenty of moments in my 33 years as a driver where a vehicle dropped out of the sky and into my blind spot; they just do that! The problem is that your attention isn't riveted on the mirrors at all times. If you have been sternly monitoring the mirrors in the previous fraction of a minute, then such a hypothesis does hold. In road tests, you have to do everything by the book, though. They want to see that you've developed the habit of checking. The habit will save you that time when your don't-have-to-do-it hypothesis happens to have a flaw.
- baddox 8y ago
  > The problem is that your attention isn't riveted on the mirrors at all times. Well, sure, no one is going to be perfect, but similarly, no one is going to always check over their shoulder. > In road tests, you have to do everything by the book, though. Of course. I expect proctors to do things by the book. That's easier and more consistent than trusting each proctor's judgment. My complaints about the test methodology were in jest, but I do think what I did was not in any way unsafe.
  - wahern 8y ago

mariojv 8y ago

In some states, yes. In Texas, I know of several people who didn't even have to take a practical driving test - just a written exam. There used to be an exemption from the practical driving test if you had a licensed parent teach their child under 18 to drive.

lhorie 8y ago

I did a driving test in Toronto and one in San Francisco. In Toronto, failing to shoulder check once wouldn't normally be an auto-fail in the same way that blowing a stop sign would, because most maneuvers are evaluated three times. If you fail to do it all three times, then that's a strike. In San Francisco, we only did a few turns and that was it. Not even any form of parking or three point turns.

amatecha 8y ago

Same here in BC, Canada, you will fail your road test if you don't shoulder-check on lane changes and even turns

8ytecoder 8y ago

That's not true. My driving inspector watched for it and actually commended me at the end. There are also so many other things that he noticed and appreciated/warned me about that I see drivers not doing every single day - indicators, not switching lanes in an intersection (immediate fail), blocking an intersection, not cruising through bike lane, taking a right turn as close to the curb as possible, stop & look for pedestrians before turning right on red, look twice for pedestrians before making a turn and on and on. I don't see most drivers following any of it.

paganel 8y ago

> You are drilled to look over the shoulder for literally every maneuver (lane switch, turn, etc.) It's not the recommended practice in Romania, you're supposed to only rely on your side-mirrors and partly on your rear-view mirror without completely turning your head from the direction you're going (i.e. forward). I'd say that this is the better solution for Bucharest's streets, where there's a much bigger chance of a pedestrian suddenly hopping in front of your car from between two parked cars on the side of the road, and as such it's better for the driver to almost always be attentive at what's in front of the car compared to what's on his/her sides.

InitialLastName 8y ago

I failed my (US) driver's test because, while I looked over my shoulder to check my blind spot, the proctor judged that the window was too fogged up for me to be able to see. Granted, I should have known better how to work the defrost function in the car.