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ChromeOS, Android, Fuchsia. You aren't far off. Hell Apple and Microsoft have less Operating Systems and it's their businesses (but that may just prove the po
by mey 8y ago
ChromeOS, Android, Fuchsia. You aren't far off. Hell Apple and Microsoft have less Operating Systems and it's their businesses (but that may just prove the point)
- xg15 8y agoI wonder if Fuchsia will really become a consumer brand though. If I understood it right, the original motivation was a desire to get rid of the Linux/GNU heritage in Android. If that is the case I could imagine that Fuchsia might not become a separate "product" for consumers at all - instead, Google could replace Android's implementation "under the hood" with it but still present it as just another Android version brand/UI wise. If they managed to do the same with Chrome OS, the'd actually have archieved consolidation on a technical level without causing consumer confusion. (Well, more than there already is)
- steelframe 8y agoGoogle still needs to replace literally millions of LoC in the Linux kernel from hardware vendors like Qualcomm before they can actually ship a real functional phone.
- mda 8y agoIf they limit their hardware choices (like Apple) it is actually not -that- difficult.
- Bombthecat 8y agoWasn't there a rumor that Google wants to build there own CPU?
- derefr 8y agoMaybe Fuchsia uses a lobotomized Linux kernel, together with such firmware blobs, as a (likely sandboxed) monolithic multi-driver?
- pm90 8y agoHow hard is it to rewrite drivers? Or is the problem that companies do not write others write these drivers?
- simcop2387 8y agoPretty hard, not only is it nearly impossible to get documentation for some of the hardware, even if you get it it'll usually be under some kind of NDA which means you can publish the driver. Then there's all kinds of errata and hardware quirks that aren't going to be in the documentation (maybe in future updates to the documentation) it ends up a full time job for multiple people to maintain just a single driver for a few products.
- hermitdev 8y ago> it'll usually be under some kind of NDA which means you can publish the driver. Did you mean cannot publish?
- simcop2387 8y agoYep, missed that when reviewing the comment and it's now too late to edit.
- hermitdev 8y agoNo worries. Seemed like that's what you meant, but just wanted to clarify.
- pkaye 8y agoThe code for the Fuchsia kernel is available. It doesn't seem derived from Linux.
- Redoubts 8y agoIt would be surprising if Fuchsia followed linux by not having a stable ABI for drivers. Setting up a stable interface would make it easier for Google to label that "not my problem."
- pjmlp 8y agoAndroid has a stable ABI for drivers since Treble, which kind of forced Linux into a pseudo-microkernel architecture, allowing for user space drivers written in either Java or C++, communicating over the HIDL messages/shared mem.
- xg15 8y agoWeren't they working on a sort of unified "hardware abstraction layer" for Android anyways? - Which would put all the vendor-specific code "below" the kernel and would allow them to reuse the same OS image on different devices. In that case, the Fuchsia kernel could just be another "client" to that layer. (just speculating here, no idea if that is in any way what they're planning)
- izacus 8y agoWhy would they? Since 8.0, Android is fully separate from Linux kernel through its so-called Treble layer (see https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/here-comes-treble-modular-base-for.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2017/05/here-comes... ) and doesn't really need Linux or POSIX sematics for its functionality.
- pjmlp 8y agoSince Treble's adoption was rather low, given that it was optional when updating from Android 7, one of the decisions on Android 9 was to make it even more independent with the introduction of Generic System Image. https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2018/11/an-update-on-project-treble.html https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2018/11/an-update-...
- izacus 8y agoWhat do you mean by low adoption? Every device launching with 8 has to support it.
- pjmlp 8y agoAbout 12% worldwide adoption, about when Android 9 got released. OEMs got around Treble certification by releasing mostly devices with Android 7 on them. And given that OEMs were the ones supposed to push Treble updates not Google, even those that released devices with 8 weren't that active pushing them. Which has finally made Google include some update requirements on the Play Services access.
- newnewpdro 8y ago> get rid of the Linux/GNU heritage in Android What GNU heritage? Android has only ever used the Linux kernel to get a leg up on hardware support in the early days. AFAIK there has never been any GNU userspace of any sort in anything Android related, much to the chagrin of the Linux community.
- pjmlp 8y agoMany never read beyond the headlines. The NDK is constrained in what it can do, as per security concerns. There is termux as port of GNU on Android, but only applications that rely on plain ISO C, ISO C++ can be ported. Syscalls support is hit and miss per devices, as it isn't part of official NDKs APIs.
- neolefty 8y agoI gathered (from the outside — no inside knowledge) it was two big things: * A response to Java lawsuits * Something to work on that is interesting But you raise a good point — why let go of Linux? Seems like a risky case of rewrite-from-scratch. What are the odds it works out? It's not a sure thing. And what would the benefits be?
- pjmlp 8y agoMIT license and microkernel design.
- golfer 8y agoYou're kidding right? Microsoft comes out with a new OS practically every other year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Microsoft_operating_systems https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Microsoft_operating_sy...
- mey 8y agoCurrently everything is based on Windows Core or has been discontinued. Xbox One has moved to Windows 10/Core, was previously based on top of Windows 8. Windows Mobile has been discontinued, and even had migrated to a Windows NT kernel before it was discontinued. ( https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-windows-phone-8-finally-gets-a-real-windows-core/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsofts-windows-phone-8-fin... ) Not sure the status of Windows CE from an official support perspective (their life-cycle page isn't working for it) but their documentation lists as disconnected as of 2014. I also don't believe any of their experimental OS projects are still active. ( https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/group/operating-systems-technologies-os-tech/ https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/group/operating-sys... ) At the end of all that, you can argue that there are two operating systems at Microsoft currently. Xbox One and Windows 10. The UI of the XBox is a sufficiently large enough gap in design/functionality that I would concede it to be a separate entity. Edit: There was a concerted effort at MS to get on to a single OS around the Windows 8/Mobile days. This was also the death of CE and switch to Windows 8 between XBox 360 and XBox one. Granted the backlash of the tablet style interface of Windows 8 was not insignificant, but you see it's refinement in Windows 10 today.
- ianai 8y agoI think of it as Microsoft’s OSes differentiate by features aka marketing weasels. They’re essentially the same OS otherwise. MS markets this as backwards compatibility at times as well. I think that’s a good feature that Google doesn't appear to be making a priority. Having said all of that, I’m sick of googles abandoning of products. I loved my 2013 Pixel 7. They essentially sell goods and services only to ignore them when it suits them.
- ggggtez 8y agoWell, if you include Windows 95/98/NT/ME/2000/... But I think it's a valid point. Windows 10's main contribution is an attempt to provide auto-updating operating system to reduce version skew. I have a lot of hope that windows 10 actually does have a long lifespan. Crossing my fingers Android can do the same one day.
- derefr 8y agoMy understanding is that the point of Fuchsia is to be a base for a new version of ChromeOS that also obviates Android. I'd compare it to the move Microsoft made with Windows XP to merge the NT and 9x lineages. Fuchsia is NT, "ChromeOS on Fuchsia" is XP, and Android is 9x.
- naasking 8y ago> ChromeOS, Android, Fuchsia. You aren't far off. Add Android TV, which has some features and restrictions that differ from Android.
- e12e 8y agoDon't forget the different Android distributions; Android TV, Android wear(?) etc.
- Kudos 8y agoDon't forget the different Windows distributions then I guess? Windows RT, Windows IoT, Xbox OS, Azure Sphere.