7 ms·

We are, sort of. We've added lithium to drinking water which has been linked to decrease in dementia. People that suffer from bipolar disorder and are being tr

We are, sort of. We've added lithium to drinking water which has been linked to decrease in dementia. People that suffer from bipolar disorder and are being treated with lithium seems rarely if ever to develop dementia, but the dosages are much much (1000 times, or so) higher than what we add to drinking water. According to my doctor the primary issue with adding higher concentration of lithium (still, way below therapeutic levels for mental disorders) to drinking water is quacks that make a lot of noise when the topic comes up. They see it as adding mind altering chemicals to water, which couldn't be further from truth.

moreira 8y ago
Well, if they’re reducing the incidence of dementia, and you would’ve gotten dementia otherwise... they -did- alter your mind. And that’s a good thing. People and their fear of chemicals though. Reminds me of http://www.dhmo.org http://www.dhmo.org
quotemstr 8y ago
Lithium is linked to all sorts of behavioral changes though. Who knows what microdosing the entire population would do? I really don't think it's fair to describe opposition to this sort of project as arising from "quacks".
- justtopost 8y ago
  I used to see people rant about 'chemicals in the water changing our behavor' and think insanity. Now I am somewhat relieved I have a private well on a secluded aquifier. Just a byproduct of rural life, overblown I am sure, but it puts the mind at ease when I read this kind of thing. PSA: suppliment floride if on a well, your otc toothpaste is not enough.
tluyben2 8y ago
But why not prevently dose families with high occurrence far higher instead of the entire population?
- vegardx 8y ago
  Because how and why it develops is not yet widely understood. We know there must be some genetic factors, but there's clearly more.
logicchains 8y ago
According to https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-1065/lithium https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-1065/lithiu... (presumably about as mainstream a source as one can hope to find online): "Lithium can cause nausea, diarrhea, dizziness, muscle weakness, fatigue, and a dazed feeling. These unwanted side effects often improve with continued use. Fine tremor, frequent urination, and thirst can occur and may persist with continued use. Weight gain and swelling from excess fluid can also occur. Lithium can also cause or make skin disorders such as acne, psoriasis, and rashes worse. The amount of lithium in the body must be carefully controlled and is checked by blood tests." "Lithium can poison a developing baby (fetus) and can increase the risk of birth defects, including heart problems. Lithium treatment is UNSAFE in women who are breast-feeding. Lithium can enter breast milk and cause unwanted side effects in a nursing infant. Heart disease: Lithium may cause irregular heart rhythms. This may be a problem, especially for people who have heart disease. Kidney disease: Lithium is removed from the body by the kidneys. In people with kidney disease, the amount of lithium that is given might need to be reduced. Surgery: Lithium might change levels of serotonin, a chemical that affects the central nervous system. There is some concern that lithium might interfere with surgical procedures that often involve anesthesia and other drugs that affect the central nervous system. Lithium use should be stopped, with the approval of a healthcare provider, at least two weeks before a scheduled surgery. Thyroid disease: Lithium might make thyroid problems worse." Clearly Lithium isn't side-effect free, so it would be pretty reckless to add something like that to drinking water.
- monadgonad 8y ago
  Everything you're quoting is at theraputic levels for bipolar disorder, way above those added to water. It occurs naturally in some waters at low levels.
  - logicchains 8y ago
    Apparently "low-dose" lithium is not without side-effects either [1]: "In general, the only significant problems with low-dose lithium are tolerability and thyroid issues. About 1 person in 10 to 15 gets dull, flat, and “blah” (the “lithium made me a zombie” effect, overrepresented in online testimonials). I explain to my patients in advance that if this happens, we’ll give up on it. This adverse effect does not diminish with time and generally persists even if the dose is reduced. Then there’s weight gain: is it dose-related? To my knowledge, this has not been established. I nurture some hope this is so. That leaves the thyroid issue. Thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) levels must be monitored even with low-dose lithium. In women, induction of hypothyroidism is extremely common—and almost predictable in women with a family history of thyroid problems. The latter may be an uncovering of an autoimmune disorder. If your patient has a high-normal TSH value before lithium (eg, 2.5 mIU/L or above, and certainly above 3 mIU/L), she is at even higher risk for lithium-induced hypothyroidism.1 So monitor closely, and even more closely in those at greater risk: for example, every 6 weeks until a trend (up, or flat) is established. Once you have established that the TSH level is not rising, the probability of later hypothyroidism due to lithium is much diminished and you can back off to getting a TSH level with your 6- to 12-month check of creatinine.2" 1. http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/bipolar-disorder/low-dose-lithium-different-important-tool http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/bipolar-disorder/low-dose-li...
whatshisface 8y ago
>They see it as adding mind altering chemicals to water, which couldn't be further from truth. >We've added lithium to drinking water which has been linked to decrease in dementia. Pick one.
- vegardx 8y ago
  No, this assumes you know how dementia forms. There are no evidence that lithium alters the brain in any way.
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    Dementia is definitely known to be a brain disease. Perhaps what you're saying is that lithium does not alter the mind? Here is a study that suggests that it reduces aggressive behavior: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/984241 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/984241 >The authors suggest that lithium can have a clinically useful effect upon impulsive aggressive behavior when this behavior is not associated with psychosis. That's a quote from the abstract. Lithium is a behavior-altering chemical. Here is another study where lithium is found to alter behavior (although, admittedly, in the brains of children which were identified as misbehaving): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6819289 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6819289 The claim that there could be a non-dietary chemical element that altered the behavior of miscreants without any impact at all on the behavior of regular people would take extraordinary evidence before I'd believe it. Every other psychoactive drug impacts healthy brains if for some reason it is administered.
    - vegardx 8y ago
      We don't know how it interacts with the body, but we're fairly certain that it doesn't alter your mind. You can stop taking it and all the symptoms will return.
      - whatshisface 8y ago
        >You can stop taking it and all the symptoms will return. It sounds like you're agreeing with me that it alters your mind while you are taking it. I'm confused by the English language use going on here. The plan is to micro-dose entire cities with lithium, which means we are interested in what lithium does when you are on it, because entire cities will be on it for decades of elapsed time. The evidence clearly indicates that the people drinking this water will have their behaviors altered, potentially for their entire lives if they just so happen to stay in cities that medicate their populations in this way. In fact, the entire point is that people's behaviors will be altered. If lithium was mentally inert, then it would not be useful as a mental health drug, and nobody would be suggesting adding it to the water supply to improve public mental health.
jcranmer 8y ago
> We've added lithium to drinking water which has been linked to decrease in dementia. Who's the "we" here? The facility I worked at adds only the following chemicals in order: sulfuric acid (pH control, since the algal sex orgies in summertime causes pH to shoot way up), poly-aluminum chloride and a long-chained coagulant polymer (coagulants), ozone and sodium hypochlorite (disinfection), sodium hydroxide (more pH control), fluoride (the obvious), ammonium (for keeping the chloride around longer), and zinc orthophosphate (pipe corrosion control). There's also unused tanks for potassium permanganate (raw water control), alum (unused alternative for PACL as a coagulant) and calcium thiosulfate (ozone quench). There's no lithium in the system at all--I've walked past every tank and pump.
- vegardx 8y ago
  I misspoke, we've wanted to add it. We've added it to soda and seen correlations where lithium is naturally occurring in the drinking water.

moreira 8y ago

Well, if they’re reducing the incidence of dementia, and you would’ve gotten dementia otherwise... they -did- alter your mind. And that’s a good thing. People and their fear of chemicals though. Reminds me of http://www.dhmo.org http://www.dhmo.org

quotemstr 8y ago

Lithium is linked to all sorts of behavioral changes though. Who knows what microdosing the entire population would do? I really don't think it's fair to describe opposition to this sort of project as arising from "quacks".

justtopost 8y ago
I used to see people rant about 'chemicals in the water changing our behavor' and think insanity. Now I am somewhat relieved I have a private well on a secluded aquifier. Just a byproduct of rural life, overblown I am sure, but it puts the mind at ease when I read this kind of thing. PSA: suppliment floride if on a well, your otc toothpaste is not enough.

tluyben2 8y ago

But why not prevently dose families with high occurrence far higher instead of the entire population?

vegardx 8y ago
Because how and why it develops is not yet widely understood. We know there must be some genetic factors, but there's clearly more.

logicchains 8y ago

According to https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-1065/lithium https://www.webmd.com/vitamins/ai/ingredientmono-1065/lithiu... (presumably about as mainstream a source as one can hope to find online): "Lithium can cause nausea, diarrhea, dizziness, muscle weakness, fatigue, and a dazed feeling. These unwanted side effects often improve with continued use. Fine tremor, frequent urination, and thirst can occur and may persist with continued use. Weight gain and swelling from excess fluid can also occur. Lithium can also cause or make skin disorders such as acne, psoriasis, and rashes worse. The amount of lithium in the body must be carefully controlled and is checked by blood tests." "Lithium can poison a developing baby (fetus) and can increase the risk of birth defects, including heart problems. Lithium treatment is UNSAFE in women who are breast-feeding. Lithium can enter breast milk and cause unwanted side effects in a nursing infant. Heart disease: Lithium may cause irregular heart rhythms. This may be a problem, especially for people who have heart disease. Kidney disease: Lithium is removed from the body by the kidneys. In people with kidney disease, the amount of lithium that is given might need to be reduced. Surgery: Lithium might change levels of serotonin, a chemical that affects the central nervous system. There is some concern that lithium might interfere with surgical procedures that often involve anesthesia and other drugs that affect the central nervous system. Lithium use should be stopped, with the approval of a healthcare provider, at least two weeks before a scheduled surgery. Thyroid disease: Lithium might make thyroid problems worse." Clearly Lithium isn't side-effect free, so it would be pretty reckless to add something like that to drinking water.

monadgonad 8y ago
Everything you're quoting is at theraputic levels for bipolar disorder, way above those added to water. It occurs naturally in some waters at low levels.
- logicchains 8y ago
  Apparently "low-dose" lithium is not without side-effects either [1]: "In general, the only significant problems with low-dose lithium are tolerability and thyroid issues. About 1 person in 10 to 15 gets dull, flat, and “blah” (the “lithium made me a zombie” effect, overrepresented in online testimonials). I explain to my patients in advance that if this happens, we’ll give up on it. This adverse effect does not diminish with time and generally persists even if the dose is reduced. Then there’s weight gain: is it dose-related? To my knowledge, this has not been established. I nurture some hope this is so. That leaves the thyroid issue. Thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH) levels must be monitored even with low-dose lithium. In women, induction of hypothyroidism is extremely common—and almost predictable in women with a family history of thyroid problems. The latter may be an uncovering of an autoimmune disorder. If your patient has a high-normal TSH value before lithium (eg, 2.5 mIU/L or above, and certainly above 3 mIU/L), she is at even higher risk for lithium-induced hypothyroidism.1 So monitor closely, and even more closely in those at greater risk: for example, every 6 weeks until a trend (up, or flat) is established. Once you have established that the TSH level is not rising, the probability of later hypothyroidism due to lithium is much diminished and you can back off to getting a TSH level with your 6- to 12-month check of creatinine.2" 1. http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/bipolar-disorder/low-dose-lithium-different-important-tool http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/bipolar-disorder/low-dose-li...

whatshisface 8y ago

>They see it as adding mind altering chemicals to water, which couldn't be further from truth. >We've added lithium to drinking water which has been linked to decrease in dementia. Pick one.

vegardx 8y ago
No, this assumes you know how dementia forms. There are no evidence that lithium alters the brain in any way.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  Dementia is definitely known to be a brain disease. Perhaps what you're saying is that lithium does not alter the mind? Here is a study that suggests that it reduces aggressive behavior: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/984241 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/984241 >The authors suggest that lithium can have a clinically useful effect upon impulsive aggressive behavior when this behavior is not associated with psychosis. That's a quote from the abstract. Lithium is a behavior-altering chemical. Here is another study where lithium is found to alter behavior (although, admittedly, in the brains of children which were identified as misbehaving): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6819289 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6819289 The claim that there could be a non-dietary chemical element that altered the behavior of miscreants without any impact at all on the behavior of regular people would take extraordinary evidence before I'd believe it. Every other psychoactive drug impacts healthy brains if for some reason it is administered.
  - vegardx 8y ago
    We don't know how it interacts with the body, but we're fairly certain that it doesn't alter your mind. You can stop taking it and all the symptoms will return.
    - whatshisface 8y ago
      >You can stop taking it and all the symptoms will return. It sounds like you're agreeing with me that it alters your mind while you are taking it. I'm confused by the English language use going on here. The plan is to micro-dose entire cities with lithium, which means we are interested in what lithium does when you are on it, because entire cities will be on it for decades of elapsed time. The evidence clearly indicates that the people drinking this water will have their behaviors altered, potentially for their entire lives if they just so happen to stay in cities that medicate their populations in this way. In fact, the entire point is that people's behaviors will be altered. If lithium was mentally inert, then it would not be useful as a mental health drug, and nobody would be suggesting adding it to the water supply to improve public mental health.

jcranmer 8y ago

> We've added lithium to drinking water which has been linked to decrease in dementia. Who's the "we" here? The facility I worked at adds only the following chemicals in order: sulfuric acid (pH control, since the algal sex orgies in summertime causes pH to shoot way up), poly-aluminum chloride and a long-chained coagulant polymer (coagulants), ozone and sodium hypochlorite (disinfection), sodium hydroxide (more pH control), fluoride (the obvious), ammonium (for keeping the chloride around longer), and zinc orthophosphate (pipe corrosion control). There's also unused tanks for potassium permanganate (raw water control), alum (unused alternative for PACL as a coagulant) and calcium thiosulfate (ozone quench). There's no lithium in the system at all--I've walked past every tank and pump.

vegardx 8y ago
I misspoke, we've wanted to add it. We've added it to soda and seen correlations where lithium is naturally occurring in the drinking water.